Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder

[Jaradu]

Originally Posted by Firestormalpha I'm afraid I don't see the difference between rewarding something and promoting it. You've heard of positive reinforcement, haven't you? In order to "promote" a given behavior, you can "reward" the one who successfully attempts the behavior. Are the words different? yes, but one leads to the other. By rewarding the behavior in-game, they potentially promote the behavior in RL.

Anyone susceptible to positive reinforcement is probably too young to be playing the game in the first place. Where's the problem?

[Firestormalpha]

Originally Posted by Luvian I have a question. In the states could a kid buy a mature game by himself from a shop?

Sad to say, but yes. Not from any shop, mind you, but only a few like Target and I believe Wal-mart really enforce the age limit.

I suspect that your point is stores aren't doing their part either. For the most part you would be correct.

Jaradu, I wasn't aware that there was an age where positive reinforcement no longer held any sway. As we mature and develope our own values and principles we may become less susceptible, but we can still be influenced by positive reinforcement. Nothing says keep doing what your doing like an ego boosting comment or a raise in pay.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Bungleau I find this humorous because Luvian is (AFAIK) Quebecois, which is a different version of Canadian that by definition, is smarter, better looking, and more handsomely compensated than the average Canadian. Or at least that's what my Quebecois relatives tell me

I acknowledged his Canadianship in my post to him.

Americentricity is not limited to Americans.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Jaradu Anyone susceptible to positive reinforcement is probably too young to be playing the game in the first place. Where's the problem?

Anyone of any age can be influences by positive or negative reinforcement. Anyone who learns can still moderate behaviour due to positive reinforcement.

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by Luvian Euh, no. Mature video games are not targeted toward teens. You're living in the past. Gamers have aged and so have the games made for them. Video games aren't different than movies; some are for adults, some are for kids. Claiming all movies are for kids would be absolutely ridiculous, and so would claiming all games are for kids is. It's simply an entertainment source, a multimedia format, a way to transfer information. It isn't any different than a book or a movie. It's not "a toy" any more than movies and books are toys. There isn't any default age for video games just as there is no default age for books or movies.

My comment was that games are marketed towards teens and young adults and I stand by that. To claim otherwise is naive. I don't think GTA is aimed for the "middle-aged gamer" in any shape, form or fashion.

Originally Posted by Luvian Games are clearly labelled with what ages they are appropriate for. TV ads clearly state what age the game they advertise are made for. Many shops refuse to carry Mature games, and over here all of them that do refuse to sell them to minors. I think that alleviate their responsibility just fine. They're clearly stating these products aren't for kids. What else could they do?

I think we have effectively concluded these measures do not work well, if at all.
What else could game manufacturers do? Simply STOP making games that require such measures in the first place. If you don't make a game that requires an "M" rating, you don't have to worry about some underaged teen skirting the system and buying it.
The rating system also ignores the fact that the buyer may be old enough for the game, but have siblings at home that are not. I know firsthand that ANY game I bring home cannot be measured by what is acceptable for my 11 yr old. Instead, I have to determine what is acceptable for the 6 yr old because all three boys will end up playing - or at least watching - the game.

Originally Posted by Luvian Parenting is hard. Shifting the blame is easy.

The boy in question was 18, which technically makes him an adult. So he can ignore the "parenting" he has been subjected to. This is even more true for young adults who don't live with their parents.

So, to restate my own quote - "Playing games is fun. Shifting blame is easy."

A young adult imitates a game? Well that kid must have been nuts already before ever playing the game, cuz the game certainly couldn't have had any bearing on his actions. So don't take away my game cause I like playing it and I don't want to find a different game that doesn't emulate breaking society's rules cause I think it's fun and besides I'm not going to REALLY go out and try to steal a car to see if it's as easy as it is in the game. Did I mention the kid who DID do that must have been crazy already?

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by Jaradu Anyone susceptible to positive reinforcement is probably too young to be playing the game in the first place. Where's the problem?

Allow me to be a little more blunt than my comrades.

BULLPUCKEY!

If you're boss tells you every day what a lousy job your doing and what a crappy worker you are, are you going to whistle a happy tune and go on with your work? OR are you gonna look for a different job where the boss doesn't ride your a$$ all day and actually appreciates the work you do?

Be careful, if you choose option B, you've just made a decision based on positive reinforcement.

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by Luvian I have a question. In the states could a kid buy a mature game by himself from a shop?

As Firestorm said, it depends on the store. You're also ignoring the internet sales of the game.

As long as you have access to PayPal, Ebay isn't going to check your age. A teenage could easily take their parents credit card and order GTA from ANY online store - including Wal-Mart.

As stated before, the ratings systems do NOT work. Therefore, the simplest solution is to NOT create games that require a ratings system to begin with.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cerek As Firestorm said, it depends on the store. You're also ignoring the internet sales of the game. As long as you have access to PayPal, Ebay isn't going to check your age. A teenage could easily take their parents credit card and order GTA from ANY online store - including Wal-Mart. As stated before, the ratings systems do NOT work. Therefore, the simplest solution is to NOT create games that require a ratings system to begin with.

Good point about the internet purchases. And how many of our parents are internet savvy? E-currency is much more widely available now than it was say, 5 years ago. With paypal, internet cheques and e-credits not to mention of course, every internet outlet is accepting credit cards. My friend for example, sends her daughter into the store with her credit card. No questions are asked because the daughter can sign for her Mother. Usually she chooses "debit" and just inputs the pin code. It's even easier online because there's no face-to-face interaction.

I think there are two ways it can go. Either fix the system to properly regulate mature games or (worst case) do not distribute these games in mainstream stores at all. The second option is self-defeating in a way since the revenue made from these games wouldn't justify their creation, because they aren't selling to a mass audience. But, if and when this does happen, it is only because they have brought it on themselves.

[Luvian]

Originally Posted by Cerek As Firestorm said, it depends on the store. You're also ignoring the internet sales of the game. As long as you have access to PayPal, Ebay isn't going to check your age. A teenage could easily take their parents credit card and order GTA from ANY online store - including Wal-Mart. As stated before, the ratings systems do NOT work. Therefore, the simplest solution is to NOT create games that require a ratings system to begin with.

All rules are useless if you're willing to commit a crime to break them, it doesn't have anything specific to do with video games.

Kids manage to get their hands on alcohol, so I suppose we should stop creating alcohol too? Oh, they also manage to get their hands on firearms! I guess we need to stop creating firearms!

Oh no! Some kids could get his hands on his parent's car keys and go for a joyride, let's stop creating cars too!

What about lighters? Some kid could set fire to something. Let's stop creating lighters!

Do I need to go on, or can we simply agree "Let's stop creating things because a kid could get his hands on it" doesn't make much sense as an argument?

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Luvian All rules are useless if you're willing to commit a crime to break them, it doesn't have anything specific to do with video games. Kids manage to get their hands on alcohol, so I suppose we should stop creating alcohol too? Oh, they also manage to get their hands on firearms! I guess we need to stop creating firearms! Oh no! Some kids could get his hands on his parent's car keys and go for a joyride, let's stop creating cars too! What about lighters? Some kid could set fire to something. Let's stop creating lighters! Do I need to go on, or can we simply agree "Let's stop creating things because a kid could get his hands on it" doesn't make much sense as an argument?

But you're seeing it in black and white. Let's try to improve the system the prevents them "getting their hands on it" before we start considering destroying it completely. It bears noting that the only reason we have come to talk about this is because the system is broken to begin with. So instead of screaming "let's ban everything" let's look into fixing it first!