Can we prove Santa Claus does NOT exist?

[Yorick]

This is a continuation of a discussion here:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cg...0;t=009078;p=4

Let's not flame each other shall we?

I've been given permission to start a new topic from a moderator, as long as it doesn't go the way of the last thread. Which was apparently circular debates for the sake of debates that go nowhere.

So let's keep that in mind.

I'd also like to thank you Neb for your contributions. They were well thought out and I enjoyed reading them. Thankyou. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now. What I'm wanting to talk about is proof. How do we verify something?

My last couple of posts were concerning the situation, where Santa Claus is regarded as nonexistant, and God as being existent for the same reasons.

Human testimony.

It seems that some of us only like to accept human testimony when it suits us. That meaning, there are times when the only proof we have of a situation is the word of another human.

Let's look at Love.

Can you prove another person loves you? Why do you believe another person loves you?

Faith and trust in the person concerned and what they are testifying to be true are the only way. We cannot gather any evidence or even observe behaviour patterns. (Which can be imitated for personal gain)

Lets look at Santa.

Can we prove he doesn't exist in any other fashion other than collecting human testimonies and making an assumption?

All we can ascertain from "hanging up a sock on christmas night" is that Santa did not come to our house that night. That we have not seen Santa.

I don't for one moment believe Santa exists, but this is because I have faith in human testimonies. I read history. There are many things in history about which the only thing you could accurately state is, that at some point, someone wrote these words. Whether the actions happened or not is unprovable. Whether the person believed what they were saying or lying is unprovable.

All we can say is that they wrote it.

This is why we cross reference historical and journalistic sources. We check the statements of as many as possible. (which is why we have four cross referencial biblical gospels - plus an extra couple saying the same thing, not included in the biblical collection. In the old testament Samuel/Kings and Chronicals cover the same territory)

This is why we so easily accept Santa as not existing. No-one has ever seen him. All of us here would undoubtably testify that their parents were the giftgivers.

That said, can we still accurately say "He does not exist" or can we only say "I know of no-one who claims he exists"?

Lets look at God.

Millions, countless millions of humans throughout history have attested to knowing the creator of the planet. To being miraculously healed physically and mentally by him. To having relationships and circumstances change for the better once knowing him, to having perceptions change and life inspirations arrive once knowing him.

Why, when so many other "lesser" things are accepted on the weight of human testimony, is this one rejected?

All a human can ever accurately say is: "I have no experience of God, and I do not believe the testimonies of his followers." Not that he doesn't exist. That is an unquantifiable statement.

Unlike Santa, where no human testimonies of him existing are known to exist, countless humans have died refusing to retract professions of belief in God. Millions live their lives with belief orientated adjustments.

As they do with love.

The bible actually equates God with love. God is love. When you have God in you, you have love in you.

Anyhow, there you are. If you're going to reply, please read over the whole post so that we avoid repititions of the same argument. Thanks.

Hugh

[ 06-17-2002, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[johnny]

oh no, what are you trying to prove now Yorrrick ?

[Sir ReGiN]

I think it all comes down to many humans' fear of accepting something that is more powerful than themselves.
If I say that God exist, I also say that there will always be something more powerful than me, and I can't do anything about it.
Now I don't know about Santa, but I guess it's the same there, we feel threatened about Santa being able to fly when we can't for example. Sure birds do it, but birds are not very clever, we are and so we have a distinct advantage over them. Santa on the other hand is as clever as we are, if not more, since he is basically human, at least he is pictured as one.
Which leads on to another interesting thing. We all know what Santa look like, even though we don't believe he exist we can see him almost everywhere for at least one month a year.
How do we know so much about Santa Claus when he doesn't exist?

[/)eathKiller]

Santa Claus Did exist at one point in time, but he was known as Saint Claus, He worked FOR God... [img]tongue.gif[/img] He now has a tomb and was famouse for wearing shades of red green and white on his robe. His teachings of the three-wise men giving gifts to Christ on his birthday somehow begame tied together, but instead of the wise men giving gifts to Christ, it was the old saint's soul giving gifts to the world of love and offerings. But as always, multiple cultural changes lead to Saint Claus having, not only a totally differint name, but he also ended up using the Christmas tree (A german invention for the holidays because the tree reprresents Christmas time in Germany) as an outlet for giving gifts to the world. If not under the tree then in stockings, and the star of God is normally rested at the top of that tree as well, so the whole Santa-claus thing isn't seperate from God. Santa Claus was a cultural creation, so he exists as long as the world recognizes his existance in our hearts and in our minds, in reality there was a physical embodyment of a saint named claus and that is what served as the inspiration for the creation of the person that we (in english) know as santa claus. In other cultures there are two santas. a good one and a bad one, the bad one delivers belts and thick branches to bad little boys to smack them upside the head with, in other cultures santa is more equated with death, its kind of odd, it all depends on how the culture recognizes him. AND YES there is even a place called "north pole" in alaska, though what they do with the hundreds of childrens letters they recieve each year isn't fully known...

[Yorick]

Great post Deathkiller. Well said.

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Yorick: [QB][/QB]

Oooh that's a dangerous line you're walking on, Yozzie ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

First : How many children aged 6, in our countries where Santa is supposed to pass, would tell you that Santa does not exist ? Close to none, I think. If you trust human testimony, then you should trust theirs, as they are as human as you and I are, aren't they ?

Second : How can you be so sure Santa doesn't pass anyway, that night, and add a bit of magic on the gifts we parents put in our children's socks ? You watching the gifts all the time ?

Third : IF Santa does not exist, then why do we grown-ups play that Santa game ? If not because we love our children so much, we want them to have a bit of kind magic in their lives ... couldn't God be akin to Santa then ?

[SomeGuy]

I agree with /)eathKiller.Plus I DO believe in Santa Claus.(Hey 11 years old and I believe in Saint Nick.So what?Gotta problem with it? )

[Epona]

Interesting thread Hugh.

My own take on it is that I don't believe there is even a slight chance that Santa exists. Why would I therefore want to spend my time proving whether he existed or not? That's for those who believe in Santa and want to make me believe too. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Moiraine: First : How many children aged 6, in our countries where Santa is supposed to pass, would tell you that Santa does not exist ? Close to none, I think. If you trust human testimony, then you should trust theirs, as they are as human as you and I are, aren't they ?

They are human, Moiraine, but thier understanding of the world is immature. They cannot separate fact from fiction, so their testimony cannot be accepted as valid proof.

My 5 1/2 year old currently wants me to buy him a Pokemon Battle Stadium, because he thinks the plastic caricatures he has will "become real" when they are plugged into the Stadium. He thinks he will then have a "real" Pokemon, just like on the cartoon.

My 4 year old doesn't perceive any danger with walking into the road in front of our house. Neither he nor his brother can fully grasp what would happen if a car struck them.

So, from the viewpoint of proving Santa's physical existence, their testimony could not be counted as valid.

However, as Deathkiller pointed out, Santa Claus is a cultural creation evolved from the existence of a real person. And - in this case - the testimony of the children is perfectly valid. They believe in him and millions of parents (myself included) work hard to perpetuate that belief.

In fact, I will be going to the local Wal-Mart sometime soon to buy a pair of completely useless rubber boots. Why? Because I plan to stick one between the glass doors of our fireplace for the children to find on Christmas Day (WHOA!!!! LOOK, SANTA LOST A BOOT!!!!!).

On a deeper level, I beleive Santa Claus represents a perfect metaphor of God that children can understand.

1) He is the embodiement of universal love. (Santa loves ALL kids).
2) There is the "threat" of punishment for being bad boys or girls, but how many children actually ever get a stocking full of switches or coals. The message --- Santa forgives them for "being bad" because he loves them so much and knows that they are really good little boys and girls.
3) Santa's love is exhibited by the sharing of gifts. Gifts that are not "earned" by the kids, but that are given simply out of Santa's love.

The same is true of our Salvation. We can't "earn" Salvation on our own....it is freely given by God to anybody that sincerely seeks it.

So, you see, Santa is a wonderful creation that can be used to lead your children to Christ by establishing the fundamental ideals in a format they can understand and appreciate.

[ 06-17-2002, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[Memnoch]

Sorry to take the thread offtopic for a second - the swimming pool reopens, Yorick, YOU are the lifeguard here - we will leave this pool open as long as possible to give you your opportunity. Make sure nobody dies on your watch as it will not look good on your record.

Carry on.