New to IWD2--First party help

[Shadowlord]

I just bought IWD2 and am working on my party setup - (note I am new to Icewind Dale, but have extensive BG and BG2-TOB experience and have done a lot of reading about characters and parties for IWD2) I was hoping to get some advice on party balance, race, etc.

Here is what I came up with:

Wild Elf sorcerer (talker, caster)

Tiefling? Ranger1/RogueX (dual wield, trap disarmer/lockpick,sneak attack)
OR
Ranger5/Fighter4/RogueX (is it worth taking those extra ranger/fighter levels to gain specialisation, racial enemy, and limited ranger casting?)

Human Paladin8/FighterX (tank1, Paladin to get fiendslayer skill)

Aasimar Battleguard of Tempus (may take some fighter levels if required)

Half-Orc Fighter (tank 2)

Druid (to back up caster, healer and tanks)

What is a Druid's main casting attribute?

I like to have a fighter-heavy party, and I think this one is quite nicely balanced with room for the varied magical attack of Sorcerer, Cleric and Druid. Any thoughts or possible improvements?

[Tancred]

A fair, even-handed lineup you have there. I've always believed in the power of a good strong fighter squad! And you're right, a Sorceror, a Cleric and a Druid ought to be able to handle anything. In answer to your queries...

A Druid relies on Wisdom to cast spells. Unlike the Cleric, the Druid can afford to skimp on Charisma, though. I guess, if you're a druid, you are allowed to smell bad. [img]smile.gif[/img] You might think about one level of Ranger, because there are plenty of benefits for a single level of ranger. Also, skills such as Animal Empathy and Wilderness Lore should come second to Concentration, which is THE skill for a spellcaster in the thick of things. Having your best spells sputter and die on you in the heat of combat is frustrating as hell.

Your rogue... in all honesty, there's not a great deal of work in ID2 for a thief. You can't steal from stores, everyone's really hard to pickpocket, etc. The only real functions you need to worry about are are unlock doors and detect traps. I got by just fine with a Rogue 1/Bard X. Feel free to multiclass your rogue in any way you wish, you'll be fine. On the subject of Rangers, though, usually just one level of Ranger is enough - you'll get the ability to dual-wield exceptionally well and racial enemy at first level, and then that's it for special skills until fourth level. Why 'waste' those three levels on pointless Ranger levels, eh?

The Battleguard of Tempus is an excellent fighter already. He don't need no fighter levels! In fact, because you have an Aasimar cleric, it's really not a good idea. You're already going to be a level behind on getting the cooler cleric spells. You want to get these spells fast 'cos they're great. Other than that, to begin with, max out his concentration skill, give him the Combat Casting feat, beef up his constitution a bit, fill his spellbooks with Bless, Draw Upon Holy Might etc and give the man an axe. With his help your Paladin, Druid and Fighter will become a force to be feared. Do you know about the Cleric special ability to 'convert' spells into helaing spells? Use it.

The Wild Elf sorceror is cool. The only minor problem you might encounter is this: with a sorceror, you'll be maxing out on Charisma and Dexterity. If the sorceror is going to be your main 'talkie' character, you'll also probably be spending out on the conversation skills - diplomacy, bluff and intimidate. This means you may have to skimp on the magical skills - spellcraft, concentration, knowledge:arcana and alchemy. It's really really handy to have some of those, especially spellcraft, because a high enough spellcraft skill (10 or more) unlocks some of the higher level spellcasting feats, which are excellent for a Sorceror because you'll often be specialising in certain spells, having so few of them. Taking Spell Focus: Evocation when you've got nothing but evocation spells in your head really helps at later levels!

You might think about giving your half-orc some Barbarian levels. No real reason... but barbarian levels are v. handy sometimes, and it suits half-orcs rather well. It'd add a bit of variety.

Aside from that... yeah, cool!

[Shadowlord]

Thanks for the reply, nice to know I am somewhere in the ballpark of a balanced party!

I did think about the Sorcerer having to forgoe some feats, but I thought since Sorcerers need CHA anyway I might as well make him the leader. Which one of my characters is most suitable to pumping CHA and being able to skimp on feats/skills?

edit: just saw that Aasimars have natural CHA +2, would a Cleric be able to get by without some combat/casting feats/skills?

[ 09-18-2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Shadowlord ]

[Tancred]

For diplomatic duties? Most likely the Paladin. When he's levelling up as a Paladin, put some points into Diplomacy. When levelling up as a fighter, put some points into Intimidate. The only trouble comes when your Paladin starts turning down hefty cash rewards for quests because it conflicts with his ideologies... so make sure he doesn't do ALL the talking. [img]smile.gif[/img] You won't need to skimp on feats, just skills.

In fact, you could even just put a hefty INT score on your Sorceror so's to have enough points to buy conversation skills... or you could say 'stuff it' and forget conversation skills altogether. I can think of about a dozen occasions in the whole game when these skills came in handy and only one or two in which they were very handy - but they're not essential. I only mentioned it because it sounded like you wanted the Sorceror to be a smooth talker... but then, he's a Wild Elf, and they're not known for being soft of speech, so it's up to you mate.

Charisma for a Cleric isn't that useful - it has a direct effect on the power of Turn Undead and a few spells and that's it. My own Battleguard was a Dwarf with -2 CHA, and I just left it at CHA 8 and he still did fine... I just ended up having to clobber Undead instead of turning them, and he had no qualms about that. The Exorcist he isn't, but... well, he has an axe. In fact, my first-level party survived the hideous Undead Targos mod, which is chock-full of vicious, powerful Undead monsters - and I didn't even use Turn Undead. Go figure.

[ 09-18-2003, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: Tancred ]

[Magness]

Shadowlord,

Clearly, you know how to build a balanced party in general terms given your BG background. That's a solid starting point.


Indeed, I like your party mix. 2 tanks, 1 druid, 1 cleric, 1 sorc, 1 rogue.


Your party will work fine as is. However, i'll give you a few suggestions that you can do with what you choose.


1. I'd switch the races between your pally and your cleric. Spellcasters are most effective when played with non-ECL characters. An Aasimar cleric would always be 1 level behind a human or any other non-ECL race. As a general rule, warrior classes are less impacted than spellcasters by being short a level.

Also, as Tancred mentioned, BG's of Tempus are already solid warrior clerics. No need to take fighter levels. They already start with 2 points in Axe.

2. I'd suggest going with a full class paladin. I'm not so sure that the additional feats are worth the loss of the additional abilities you get from being a higher level pally. Also, when building the stats for your pally, IMHO CHA is much more valuable than WIS. Why? 2 reasons. Divine Grace lets you add the CHA bonus to all of your saving rolls. And Lay Hands healing is calculated on CHA bonus/level. Therefore a 10th level pally with a CHA of 16 would heal +3 * 10 == 30 HP.

3. Wild Elf sorc. Nice choice. Able to use a bow as a non-magical alternative.
4. Half-orc fighter. Another nice choice. Can never go wrong with a half-orc fighter (or barbarian).


5. Don't worry about taking a rogue. Rogues may not be terribly busy with their theiving skills, but they are still useful characters. Rogues are pretty good in may multiclass combos. But if you're looking for a potent fighting rogue, I suggest going with a fighter-rogue or a ranger-rogue. IMHO 10 levels of rogue is more than enough. You'll have plenty of skills. You'll have enough levels to get access to the higher level rogue feats (Greater Evasion being the best).

I've played both fighter/rogues and ranger/rogues and both are good and have their good points. Ranger/rogues (mixed at about ranger 6/rogue 10) hae the benefit that you get the free ranger dual-wielding and rangers have access to some of the same stealth skills as rogues, so you when you level up as a ranger, you can take stealthy skills and not fall behind in those skills. OTOH, if you go fighter/rogue, you'll have slightly lower skill levels but will get more feats.

I suggest having an INT of 14 for a rogue so that you get get a solid amount of skill points. Also, in any rogue multiclass, start as a rogue to get the big initial burst of skills. (Trust me, it's worth it.) Also, it's great to play one of the races with that has rogue as the favored class (like Halfling or tiefling). Starting a rogue with a DEX of 20 is great for missile BAB and for the DEX based skills. Add weapon finesse so that you can use your DEX instead of STR for your melee BAB.


I wouldn't call a party with 2 tanks and 3 major spellcasters (cleric, druid, and sorc) as being fighter heavy.

My favorite IWD2 party was similar to yours. 1 elven female Pally of Mystra (choice made for RP reasons), 1 male human fighter/barb, 1 male wild elven ranger (primarily an archer), 1 human female fighter/rogue "swashbuckler", 1 human male cleric of Ilmater, 1 human female sorceress.

Aside from the ranger instead of a druid, this party was fairly similar to yours. I also prefer my parties to lean a bit more towards the physical than the arcane. The favorite part of this party for me was that I used my ranger and my fighter/rogue as a little stealthy hit and run team that caused incredible havok, sneaking up on enemy spellcasters and killing them before they could utter a word. Great fun. And when stealth wasn't called for, they were a pair of great archers and very capable in melee when needed.


Enjoy!!!

[Black Baron]

spoiler, probably


-Theif is useless. i mean it. i take 2 tanks, cleric, druid, sorceror and a necro. one of the last two ones have high int and dex. as a thief he will do for the first time. than you have knock, and mirror image. improved invisibility on the sorceror and he kills everything. period. if not-help him with necro.
spoiler for sure:

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the result: twice more offensive spells. the final battle-NO ONE GOT HURT. silly as it sounds, isair went for the monk (that decided to help), and i butchered his sister, with everyone (druid with pudu's halberd, cleric with his mace) monk and the ultra tank-fighter with max strength 27 (if i am not mistaken)with two handed sword +5, and "chain lightninged" her. pretty soon-"we must run away, or whatever". The second fight was piece of cake. Improved invisibility, i like you!!!!!

[ 09-21-2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]

[Magness]

Oh for crying out loud!!! There's nothing wrong with ROGUES. Anyone that says otherwise, is just an powergamer.


I've used rogues in every party that I've played with great success. My playing and combat style tends towards the physical over the arcane. My spellcasters support my tanks and I use my stealth characters for scouting and search and destroy missions.

My last party was a paladin, a fighter/barb, a ranger-archer, a fighter/rogue "swashbucker", a sorceress, and a cleric of Ilmater. We totally kicked butt with my standard tactics and had no need for uber powergaming cheese.

[Shadowlord]

Thanks for the advice Magness.

I guess you're right, the Paladin might as well be a pure class Aasimar as the Cleric needs those levels.

I think I'll change the Half-Orc fighter to a human for Role-playing reasons, I have difficulty rationalising a good aligned Half-Orc plus I like the feel of the party better If restricted to Human/Elf/Half-Elf combinations.

Glad to hear the Battleguard of Tempus can hold her own without fighter classes.

I will definitely have a rogue in any party I play, It just wouldn't feel right otherwise!

I mentioned my preference for fighter heavy parties as this one is a step away from that as I would usually have a Ranger in place of the Druid. I have actually never played a Druid before so that should be an interesting experience.

My computer can't read the Cd so I have a long time to plan this party--at least until I have enough money to upgrade.

Black Baron- thanks for the advice, but the Rogue is a must for me. While I am looking to build a reasonably powerful party, I don't want some uber-powerful demi gods who don't get a scratch in the final battle. The role-playing feel of the party is just as (if not more) important to me than the power of the party.

[ 09-22-2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Shadowlord ]

[Black Baron]

It is not a uber powerful, i was merely lucky. it was my second reload, you know. In the first one i was butchered.
But maybe i am a munchkin. I always build my tanks-5 int, 5 char, 3 wis, the rest-constitution speed and strength. Wysards hace 5 wisdom but high int, etc.
My first game is always a uberpowerful, i am afraid. maybe i am too fond of it...

spoiler. probably


the key to victory is improved invisibility. if you have it, you prevent LOADS of damge to your characters.

[Magness]

Originally posted by Black Baron: It is not a uber powerful, i was merely lucky. it was my second reload, you know. In the first one i was butchered. But maybe i am a munchkin. I always build my tanks-5 int, 5 char, 3 wis, the rest-constitution speed and strength. Wysards hace 5 wisdom but high int, etc. My first game is always a uberpowerful, i am afraid. maybe i am too fond of it... spoiler. probably the key to victory is improved invisibility. if you have it, you prevent LOADS of damge to your characters.

:roll:

There's no need what so every to play such uber-powerful stat monsters to win the game. I'll freely admit that I will lower WIS or INT to 8 for certain characters. And I'll go as low as 6 for CHA in some cases. But never, ever below these levels. It's just too unrealistic and ridiculous.


Furthermore, if you are playing the original (unpatched) version of IWD2, Inproved Invis is bugged. Imp. Invis is supposed to largely go away after your first attack, but the unpatched, bugged version will stay at full power, letting you attack for the full duration of the spell while being totally ignored. It's completely boring to attack every enemy on a given level while being ignored. Might as well be target practice. It's no challenge whatsoever.