Rogue talent review

[burnzey boi]

Oh and err.. It's REALLY embarrasing when you get killed from ganking somebody. And i mean REALLY embarrasing. Never take on a warrior as a rogue, i have learnt my lesson from this experience.. Many times.

[Timber Loftis]

Nobody can see you. You have stunlock. You have vanish. You only need 1 hp.

[Glycerine_74]

If a rogue gets the drop on you, there's a good chance you will end up dead if you are a caster. If they don't have the element of surprise, they usually end up running away or dead. I was out grinding with my warrior once and went afk for a couple minutes. Some rogue sneaks up and gets the drop on me. He got in at least 3 hits before I got back to the keyboard, stood up, turned around, and beat him mercilessly into the ground. Smart rogues usually won't take on a warrior unless they are sure they can keep them locked down or kill them before they have a chance to react: Rend, Hamstring, Disarm = dead rogue

It was even better being a shadow priest. The only time they could take me down is stealthed, from behind, using ambush. Even still it wasn't a guarantee unless they had really good gear. If they didn't kill me I could very easily fear, DoT, pop a shield, heal, and proceed to chase them down as they ran away as fast as possible.

Mage? AoE like a madman and a rogue will never even get close to you while stealthed. Then you just frost nova, blink, and nuke them to death.

I have a level 35 night elf rogue myself, so I do love the class, but saying they are overpowered is just plain wrong. Take away their element of surprise and they are easily destroyed. After playing this game for almost 2 years, I’ve learned that there is no class in the game that is overpowered. Any class can take down any other class; it all depends on the gear and the players involved.

glyc

[ 07-18-2006, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Glycerine_74 ]

[Ivelliis]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Nobody can see you.

Unless the rogue is dotted, in combat, near a human using perception, a hunter with track hidden, anyone buffed with detect invisibility (I'm not 100% sure that works) or in combat. Oh and that warlock pet that can detect invis (I think? Never played a lock so I'm not too sure)

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: You have stunlock.

They *can* have stunlock. Not all rogues go for this build. It only takes one miss and you're back in business.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: You have vanish.

...every five minutes.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: You only need 1 hp.

Not really anything to reply to this comment but...of course they don't.


As Glycerine said above me, if a rogue gets the jump on you (and the rogue knows what he/she is doing) the chances are you're dead.

However, if you get the jump on a rogue, you can kill them pretty easily. When I did PVP with my hunter (and I'll admit, I was a right noob then) I could kill rogues with easy. Mark 'em, aimed shot, serpent sting, multishot, conc. shot, autoshot to death. Easy.

But if one got the jump on me, I was screwed. Never knew about the whole feign/freeze in those days oh so long ago, so it was scatter shot, run off, try and kill them before they got me.

Man I sucked

[Timber Loftis]

Okay, first off detect invisibility does not detect stealth. Yes, the paranoia effect from the Felhunter does, which will give you approvimately 0.3 more seconds to react to an incoming rogue. (If you want a cite for this number, I'll post links to World of Roguecraft again).

Look, it's economics really. Blizztard is a company and monitors its subscribers via the forums. Rogues whined and whined and now they get a really good talent review. Shammies whined, and their talent review was mediocre, and to add insult to injury Blizzard tried to nerf Windfury. (Note: only after the mass of people complained and pointed out that Paladins make raiding EZmode compared to Horde did they finally relent yesterday and un-nerf WF). Warlocks have cried for a *real* talent review forever -- last "review" all we got was Deathcoil, the 3-second duration spell that cause massive whining around the world.

So what determines who gets a good review? Population of course. Rogues are the most populous class, you have to cater to their whining. Warlocks and Shammies, the least populous.

Simple math and marketing, folks.

[Glycerine_74]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Look, it's economics really. Blizztard is a company and monitors its subscribers via the forums. Rogues whined and whined and now they get a really good talent review. Shammies whined, and their talent review was mediocre, and to add insult to injury Blizzard tried to nerf Windfury. (Note: only after the mass of people complained and pointed out that Paladins make raiding EZmode compared to Horde did they finally relent yesterday and un-nerf WF). Warlocks have cried for a *real* talent review forever -- last "review" all we got was Deathcoil, the 3-second duration spell that cause massive whining around the world. So what determines who gets a good review? Population of course. Rogues are the most populous class, you have to cater to their whining. Warlocks and Shammies, the least populous. Simple math and marketing, folks.

Yeah right. This is the same crap I've been hearing since day one. There are people from every class that whine, bitch, and complain about how they are getting shafted by Blizzard. These same people whine, bitch, and complain about how every other class should be "nerfed" this way or that. I really wish all of you would just get over it. There is no conspiracy, move along please. Take it to the WoW forums where it belongs. I'm sure there will be plenty of other tinfoil hatters to trumpet Blizzard's complete and utter disdain for the Warlock class. Meanwhile, a few threads down, you’ll have someone screaming “Nerf the ‘locks! They are overpowered!” Blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, sure, whatever. *yawn*

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Any class is playable all the way to the endgame, and every class has their respective strengths and weaknesses. I've been on WoW since launch and I've tried every class but a Shaman, so I'm pretty content in the fact that I know what I'm talking about. Your talent review is coming, so just be patient and wait it out.

glyc

[ 07-19-2006, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Glycerine_74 ]

[NagaSaki]

Tbh i dont think 'locks need a big review. Just fix soulshard gathering / stacking and nerf deathcoil back to how it was and give us a proper escape ability. Ours DOTS are crazy powerfull and in raiding terms on boss fights i'm always in the top 3 of damage, except on specific fights where i'm banishing or fearing mobs.
Look at the glass like its half full , not half empty Timber. Back in the days of patch 1.2 - 1.3 i was a FREE honour kill to any undead class. WOTF used to last 35 seconds - the rogue would activate it and laugh as i tried to run away from him as i had no other ability to keep him off.
Soullink had to be recast every 30 seconds at 400 mana cost a pop.
Then came our great 1.4 patch where they 'imporved' the demonology tree. All it gave was slightly more damaging demons and soulink that absorbed half the damage it does now.
Still i ran around with no escape ability except fear (which they bug every patch- teleporting feared players so your never facing the right way- breaking after 2 seconds etc). Deathcoil and when thy improved the demonology tree in 1.6 are the only decent changes. I'd like to see an indepth review simply because demonology is rather a seperate and doesn't intergrate with the other trees very well.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Glycerine_74: Your talent review is coming, so just be patient and wait it out. glyc

No, it's not. Blizztard has officially stated that henceforth there may be tweaks and bugfixes, but the Rogue talent review in 1.12 is officially the last talent revisit they will have until after Burning Crusade is on the shelves.

I'm not really having issues. I've got a cool guild and I'm not shut out of any raid I want to be on.

But, the mage talent review has left many Locks out in the cold. A number of guilds are shutting down the Lock numbers in BWL and further raids to 2 Locks. One for CoR to buff melee DPS and one for CoE to buff Rogue DPS, and none needed for CoS because that's a waste with only 2 Locks. They each have to show up with a metric s**tload of shards to summon everyone, give out HS's and still have Soulstones up.

The problem I'm seeing is, regardless of PVP or levelling prowess, some classes are getting marginalized end-game, due to their lack of utility, and are getting replaced by rogues and mages for ub3r DPS.

NagaSaki, I cannot believe you're in the top 3 DPS because it mathematically doesn't make sense. Our Locks always fall below rogues and mages, amidst hunters and above DPS warriors. If you look at the Lock's mana inefficiency vs. Mages and overall lack of DPS comparable to Rogues I don't see how even the most damage-intensive Lock builds could compare, especially on long boss fights. AND I DON'T MIND -- Mages are supposed to be the uber caster DPS, and I am cool with that. But between their new threat talents and Warlock's (1) lack of threat reduction except in a gimped damage build, (2) mana inefficiency (LifeTap really takes time away from pewpewpew'ing), and (3) limitations on DoT's on a raid, it seems the Lock has been knocked far enough down to merit cutting their numbers on a raid.

As I said, my guild has been cool about it, and we have cut our recruitment off, so our numbers are set and Locks aren't getting as marginalized. But, I'm reading guild leaders every day talk about doing Naxx and cutting the number of Locks on a raid from 4 to 2.

[Ivelliis]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: NagaSaki, I cannot believe you're in the top 3 DPS because it mathematically doesn't make sense. Our Locks always fall below rogues and mages, amidst hunters and above DPS warriors. If you look at the Lock's mana inefficiency vs. Mages and overall lack of DPS comparable to Rogues I don't see how even the most damage-intensive Lock builds could compare, especially on long boss fights. AND I DON'T MIND -- Mages are supposed to be the uber caster DPS, and I am cool with that. But between their new threat talents and Warlock's (1) lack of threat reduction except in a gimped damage build, (2) mana inefficiency (LifeTap really takes time away from pewpewpew'ing), and (3) limitations on DoT's on a raid, it seems the Lock has been knocked far enough down to merit cutting their numbers on a raid.

We have four locks on our group roster, some raids we get 4, some raids we've had two, and even once we had one. (which means no Garr in MC, which kind of sucks, although it means if we do try I get to tank an add /flex).

NagaSaki I must say I agree with Timber here...perhaps burst damage (The highest hit in MC was from a Warlock, 2.7k I believe) but overall sustained damage no way.

In MC there are two hunters, me and a friend of mine, which comes at least 1st-4th regardless of who else is in the group. Dropping is only do
a) fighting things in melee (annihilators)
b) going afk
c) getting lazy and autoshotting

But as boss fights I am always top, and my friend is always second, as then I actually go for max DPS using a real cycle, dots and whatnot. Your hunters need to get themselves up there Timber, with Feign death I can nuke from sunder one, get an aimed/multi in before I feign, and start again.

I'd still take warlocks, if not only for the healthstones ( *grin* ), but I can see your concern you're being replaced by mages.

As NagaSaki said, all classes have the power to be the best. In PVP rogues, if they get the jump on a clothie, will pretty much win most times, and there is very little you can do about it. What next? They vanish, do it again. Ok two honor kills in around 30s? What for the next 4m 30s they can't stealth or vanish, and everyone thinks "rogue low armor low health go kill now".

If you see a rogue standing out in the open, unstealthed, he is free honor. Stealth is *their* tool, without it they are nothing.

[NagaSaki]

My guild doesn't do MC anymore but in BWL yes i will fall out of the top 10 in a full run. Mobs die too quickly for me to do enough damage to them. As for boss fights i dont know about your maths but i am top 3 every fight, i come first every NEfarian fight simply because of the aoe part. I have 600 + dmg excluding trinkets which i pop when ever ready, my build is SM / Ruin ( the best pure dps build 'locks have). We have 1 rogue that has the best gear possible in wow and he is always above or just under me.
In a typical Nefarian fight i'll wait for 2 sunders, put on Cos / Coe depending if i'm on duty for it, then: Pop my trinket, put on corruption and commence shadowbolt spam.
Yes i generate alot of aggro but by the time i'm on the verge of getting aggro i run out of mana - so the next 10 seconds i'm chain lifetapping till full mana and half hp (where i get a heal). Pop trinket number 2 -reapply corruption and sboltspam, nightfall gives me approx 6-10 free shadowbolts for this fight. crits help alot- i cant crit less than 2200+
The problem you seem to be having timber is that your healers dont have the mana or incination to heal you so you cant tap to full mana.
Mages have indeed got better dps since their update but we dont have man fire/arc mages around simply becasue of too many immune or highly resistant mobs in BWL. If fire mages were more common then maybe i would see them as a threat.

Well i've kinda burned myself out on wow and since we've beaten everything upto 3rd boss of Nax i just see it as all the same. I'm gonna take a break off Wow till the expansion then come back and get better than tier3 gear. Hopefully my whole guild will see it this way so we can avoid Nax [img]tongue.gif[/img] . Although AQ40 is biggest waste of space for an instance- i got my chest piece of c'thun and now i skip that raid if possible because its so frustrating.