German & French Conscription

[Masklinn]

Just a little addition to this thread : France is over with the conscript rule since 1998 or so (at the age of 18 years old, a french boy had to do 2 years in the army, then they reduced it to 1 year, then 10 monthes, now its gone for good for eveyone born after 1979). Now we only have to do three "citizen days" as they call it where they teach you...well I'm not sure what cause I didn't do it (shame on me yeah).

[banzai]

Oh - and just one other addition. As a German being in the Air Force for 15 month years back (that was the term then) - the main reason for the introduction of this system in the 1950´s wasn´t mentioned here. The armed forces (there was no social service as an alternative then) should be interwoven with the civil society so no military caste could evolve like in Nazi Germany.
The alternative to serving in the army was jail - social service as an alternative was introduced about 10 years later but till nowadays you have to serve in the army OR the social services. Total refusal still means jail.

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by johnny: Tell that to the Chinese.

Yeah, we'll tell them if they could ever get their troops out of SE Asia...

Personally, I don't feel a government has a right to your time. They take their cut of your income, they demand your help in time of war, which THEY make, and they want me to give up time in compulsory? Screw that!

The US military is as fearsome and dangerous as it is out of the fact that those who are there want to be there. Conscription inevitably degrades the quality of the military, and like forced volunteerism (I call it slavery, but I'm a romantic at heart) it actually cuts against a willingness to serve time for the public good. If a draft were to roll around, where everyone would be examined, I'd be turned over, as I have certain health problems that preclude me from serving.

To me, conscription is in every way wrong, and it doesn't have anything going for it. The US Army has said as much, that an army of conscripts is not what it's looking for. A free man is far more dangerous to his enemies than a slave, and that has been proven over history repeatedly.

Also, Bill Clinton and his forced community service has bred more apathy than you can imagine...

Consider that when people were MORE active, and more concerned, they weren't required to be at all, the Gilded Age was hardly a time of forced anything by government power.

as to civil service, they do work jobs other than general military duty. the military can be employed to build houses, repair roads, serve food, and a plethora of other things as well. believe me, the german young men get a feel for duty and honor that the youth miss out on in the US.

Or you could have private enterprises do such a thing... After all, people making their own money is a good thing. In that last sentence, you imply that young men in the US are not honorable. If we had any more European 'civilization' or 'honor' I'd have to tear-ass it to the hills and avoid human contact till my death. I don't do so well when forced into things.

In the US, you aren't government property, and you don't owe the government, it's just the opposite. If you want to live in the echoes of feudal servitude, fine, but don't tell us to live that way.

[ 05-31-2004, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Oblivion437 ]

[promethius9594]

oblivion, i said i currently am in germany. maybe you should take a look at where i'm from before you presume to educate me on what it's like in america. i LIVE there. i AM a youth. i know that on average youth in america don't know a spit about real honor compared to ALOT of people, and i know it because i've been in it. in fact, your entire post drips with "i'm going to get mine and thats the final line."

yes, a volunteer military is effective. but the german military does not serve the role that the american military does. the people arent opossed to conscription, its just a natural sense of DUTY... which is something apparently lacking in american culture, which your post verifies so clearly. what does a man know of honor, if when his country needs him, he heads for the hills? where is his sense of pride, and integrity, if he hides and lets someone else carry all his obligation for him? it does not exist. such a man is without honor, and really shouldnt be counted among men.

the germans have freedoms that americans don't have, they have restrictions and duties that americans don't have as well... but one thing they have not forgotten, which it seems more americans forget every day, is that freedom is not free.

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by promethius9594: oblivion, i said i currently am in germany. maybe you should take a look at where i'm from before you presume to educate me on what it's like in america. i LIVE there. i AM a youth. i know that on average youth in america don't know a spit about real honor compared to ALOT of people, and i know it because i've been in it. in fact, your entire post drips with "i'm going to get mine and thats the final line."

I live in America too. I didn't say you didn't know America, but you seem to have forgotten the most basic virtues, which have been corrupted by a bad government, which has too much power.

I want to strip down the government, I don't want to do community service BECAUSE THEY TELL ME TO. I'll serve my community as a good citizen, I'll help people out because they are in need of it, but I won't do it out of fear of coercive force by a group more powerful than I.

I don't want anything from this system that it doesn't owe me, and it has no right to my time. I'll pay my taxes, I'll vote, I'll participate, but I'm not about to advocate forcing others into it. That's indoctrination. The kind of compulsory service programs the DNC, Neo-Cons and the Klintonistas have proposed are no different, at all, from the Fascist programs used in the 1920's and 1930's in Italy and Germany. In fact, the philosophy behind them, and this is the most horrifying part, the philosophy behind them is identical, right down to notions of group identity being more important than individual freedom. Damn dirty pack rats.

yes, a volunteer military is effective. but the german military does not serve the role that the american military does.

Then it's mutated beyond its real value. A military should not be any more than a body to defend the people of a nation/feudal estate/cooperative/social group of some sort. The soldiers of Rome digging aqueducts are still soldiers, and for that reason they were forbidden from entering Rome as soldiers in formation, under a commander.

the people arent opossed to conscription, its just a natural sense of DUTY... which is something apparently lacking in american culture, which your post verifies so clearly.

Yes, that's right. I value individual freedom over group identity or group security, and I don't feel in debt to a state which is oppressive. What I owe my people I will pay in my own way if I can, but I don't owe this government, which is trying to tell ME how to live, anything more than 35%.

what does a man know of honor, if when his country needs him, he heads for the hills?

What if the country that 'needs him' has continually violated his rights, has failed to act according to the written foundations which limit and extend in exactitude its powers? As I see it, he was the one deserted first.

where is his sense of pride, and integrity, if he hides and lets someone else carry all his obligation for him?

Unless of course his obligation is violated, perhaps by breach of contract, if the people could automatically file a suit against the government at their time of choosing for this, the whole system would be dismantled by now. Another thing, the government truly has distanced itself from us as a people, for it can't even be sued unless it agrees in advance to be party to the suit.

it does not exist. such a man is without honor, and really shouldnt be counted among men.

Because he won't give away his natural rights to a body which has abused him? The welfare state, the forced volunteerism, political disillusionment, the Kennedy Assassination (when a group of high-up government employees can have their boss murdered, leave the evidence pointing right at them, and get away with it, it's hard to feel obligated to that government, which is rotten) as well as stuff like Watergate and abuses by the DNC for financial advantages over the years (no different from GOP abuses, mind you) and the complete loss of interest in politics (which I believe was deliberately brought about) and total obscuring of the heart of the issues via the two-party system, let's face it, people didn't give up on caring, they were made apathetic. Don't worry, the government will take care of you and make your trouble go away. The recent troubles have been something of an awakening for me, and I no longer trust the government. I feel it is my DUTY to my people to do what Thomas Jefferson said, that it is not only my right, but my DUTY to overthrow this government.

the germans have freedoms that americans don't have, they have restrictions and duties that americans don't have as well...

Like freedom of speech? In a country where it's illegal to display violence against human beings in video games? Where Return To Castle Wolfenstein was outlawed? Where the Swastika and anti-semitic anything are illegal? Sorry, but there isn't much freedom in a country that tries to suppress and bury something under the skin.

but one thing they have not forgotten, which it seems more americans forget every day, is that freedom is not free.

Yes, they haven't forgotten they 'owe' something to the state, they are state property in their own eyes. I don't feel freedom is something instantly available, and the struggle is constant. If we were to adopt compulsory service, we would lose the battle. I don't want to do that.