A view on patriotism

[AzureWolf]

Something I have been meaning to post about for awhile is views on patriotism.
I hadnt got around to it yet but today something that made me come here and post it now was something I found in a David Gemmel book.
Actually I have read and know about it from r/l experiences.
It is the point of turning a blind eye to a loved ones faults.
This works for all partriotism.
As love for ones country, the closer you get to loving your country the more you lose sight of the faults that come with the greatness.
Now I personally am not patriotic in the slightest, I dont give a shit what country I live in and emotionally support none. IMO this is because I spent a lot of my childhood moving around the world and this gave me a wider perspective than those who have not left their counrty before.
Interaction with other cultures.
Yet I understand how many can have a great love for their country. But my point is this.
When you think of your country do you only think of the great things that have happened in its history? Or do you also remind yourself that there are always as many faults to go along. Almost every country has one Con for every Pro.
Now I know a lot of people here are very patriotic eg Liliara and John H
Then there are the opposite, those who think their country is not to be patriotic about. eg Kaz
But you have to find a middle ground and not let patriotism blind you while still feeling love for your country. Which I think some others have. eg Lady Z
And still there are some again who are striving to make you into the middle ground players by making you think. eg Diogenes, Silver Cheetah, Gkar, Skywalker, Fljotsdale.
What are your opinions on patriotism?

ps this post may not be written very well as from lack of sleep and may be edited in the morning

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"I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

Overlord of all that I behold and anything that i happen to not notice either.

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[Yorick]

Patriotism - or love for ones country - is not blind. Love is not blind. Love is acceptance, putting someones needs before your own, care, commitment, passion. It is not blind acceptance.

You may be talking about blind nationalism Azure.

Regarding the other posters, Kaz has every right to feel patriotic. The Deutsch (including Austrians) are a wonderful race, and they live in a beautiful part of the world. Einstein, Handel, Beethoven, Luther. German thinkers, composers and entrepeneurs have been at the forefront of their fields in many eras.

Just because Kaz and other Deutsch are aware of the extreme slide nationalism can and did lead to does not mean they are, or need to be unpatriotic.

Regarding Dio, F, Silver Cheetah etc. Why presume an agenda of "trying to make us think"? Who are any of us to pursue that? It implies arrogance and superiority for a start. I don't read that at all in their posts. We are individuals sharing thoughts and expression, sometimes for their own sakes. To vent, get them out, give the thoughts voice, hear feedback. I don't think you can possibly say Liliara is not thinking any more or less than Diogenes about the situation because they disagree. It seems to me you have validated those who's opionions reflect your own, while dismissing those that differ as "blind".

Also where do I fall in your spectrum Azure? A alien finding passionate love for their new home involves sight, comparison and analysis. How have you fared in this regard in Sydney?

Hmmmmm?

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[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-14-2001).]

[250]

Originally posted by Yorick: Love is not blind. Love is acceptance, putting someones needs before your own, care, commitment, passion. It is not blind acceptance.

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-14-2001).]

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by Yorick: Patriotism - or love for ones country - is not blind. Love is not blind. Love is acceptance, putting someones needs before your own, care, commitment, passion. It is not blind acceptance. You may be talking about blind nationalism Azure. Well than maybe I am talking about a mix of the two Regarding the other posters, Kaz has every right to feel patriotic. The Deutsch (including Austrians) are a wonderful race, and they live in a beautiful part of the world. Einstein, Handel, Beethoven, Luther. German thinkers, composers and entrepeneurs have been at the forefront of their fields in many eras. Just because Kaz and other Deutsch are aware of the extreme slide nationalism can and did lead to does not mean they are, or need to be unpatriotic. In no way did I say that Kaz should not or cannot be patriotic. She just sees it as a foriegn notion that is frowned upon in Germany, from what I gather from her posts. Regarding Dio, F, Silver Cheetah etc. Why presume an agenda of "trying to make us think"? Who are any of us to pursue that? It implies arrogance and superiority for a start. I don't read that at all in their posts. We are individuals sharing thoughts and expression, sometimes for their own sakes. To vent, get them out, give the thoughts voice, hear feedback. I don't think you can possibly say Liliara is not thinking any more or less than Diogenes about the situation because they disagree. NO, argh like I said my posts may not be so coherant this time of night so I may not have explained myself well. What I sort of meant was that they try and show you that you should take everything with a grain of salt. Of course this is MY view on things. It seems to me you have validated those who's opionions reflect your own, while dismissing those that differ as "blind". I did not mean to do this. But then again Yorick if you had posted something to the opposite effect would not you too have validated those who shared your beliefs? How can you not when their views reflect your own. Also where do I fall in your spectrum Azure? A alien finding passionate love for their new home involves sight, comparison and analysis. How have you fared in this regard in Sydney? LOL Yorick you fall into the spectrum as someone not to argue with. I learnt that awhile ago Seriously though, I am not saying loving your country is bad. It is GREAT that you have managed to do that with your new home. I am saying that sometimes love can blind you to a point. An example is a father who is proud of his sons prowess at sports, but strives to ignore the fact that his son is also the school bully. Or a mother who prides over her daughters school grades but fails to realise that the daughter is also insufferably arrogant because of her intelligence. (THESE ARE ONLY EXAMPLES) You have not let love do that to you before? Hmmmmm? Oh yeah and I am not livin in Sydney but in Yass just about 3 hours drive away and really hate it.`But that is because of that fact that i dislike the country life not because I am in Aussie. IMO I wouldnt care where in the world I lived so long as it was a nice big city somewhere with lots of clubs

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"I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

Overlord of all that I behold and anything that i happen to not notice either.

Founding Hamlet of the HADB.

I live for the day when people embrace their world citizenship and express world patriotism. If that idea starts with love for the a particular nation and spreads from there, grrrreat.

[250]

love itself does not blind people. what blinds your is FEAR, fear for disappointment, fear for failed expectaions, fear for rejections, fear for good will turn out to be bad...

so, you really should not mix the two together. Love itself, is not the cause of blindness

Patriotism leads to Nationalism when it get a bit out of hand
And patritism makes you subjectuve
Almost blind from what the other side has to say
That is the danger of patriotism
That's why I'm not a Dutchman nor Am I a Chinese
I'm just Gelderlander
We are to small to be a danger to anyone

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[Silverquick]

That would depend Azure,

Some of those people you name I question as well about whether they truly do care about the United States. Because I find that those that spout the "USA is bad" are usually just as ignorant of what happened as those "blind patriots".

Its one thing to bring up concerns, its another to litterally be totally against your country. The United States Is not necessarily clean, but many of the decisions the United States has made have been dictated to it.

You should know by now the United States isnt a Proactive country, its a reactive one. The majority of the decisions it makes are based on the hand that has been dealt to it.

Over the Last few Days I have heard the standard anti-US lingo from the Muslim side. Things like....

Example: The USA is killing millions of Iraqi children and dont care!

This of course ignores the fact that the reason Iraqi children are dying is because a certain man named Saddam Hussien loves nuclear/chemical/biological weapons and decided to overrun an ally of the United States called Kuwait. After the Gulf war an entire coalition including those muslim nations decided the fate of Iraq.
Thus the Muslim nations are equally responsible, but its more convenient to just blame the United States.
It also Ignores the fact that they have opened those sanctions to allow him to sell oil for Humanitarian aid... but the money all went to Hussien instead of to his people.

Example: You supported Iraq in its war against Iran when Saddam was on the side of the United States. See how terrible your country is for supporting evil dictators?

Problem with this one is that at the time we were doing that Iran was holding a load of US Hostiges from the US embassy and wouldnt give them up. The USA either had to invade Iran itself to get its people back... or back someone involved in a war with Iran and hope he (Saddam) won.

Example: You Supported the Taleban so this is your fault for them in Afghanistan.

Ummm no, the United States supported the Mujahadin who did indeed throw Russia out of the country who had invaded with the purpose of annexing it. The current Taleban are a small fragment of the former Mujahadin that later were trained and sponsored by Pakistan in the 1990s. The United States did not create the Taleban.

Example: War is bad why are you killing innocent Afghanis, that is just as bad as the terrorists.

Unfortunately the Problem is bin Laudin is leaving us little choice. The terrorist attacks from him are coming anyway regardless of what we do. The American civilian bodies will continue to pile up here in the United States until bin Laudin and Al'Qaida are eliminated.

The Taleban will not give him up, they really are very interwoven with him and his Al'Qaida. It should be no surprise that they wouldnt give him up when asked. Bill Clinton asked them to turn him over during his terms of office. He had proof positive that Bin Laudin was involved in the Trade center and the embassy bombings via intercepted cell phone calls.

This means that the United States will have to take out the Taleban. To do that means some Afghani civilians will die.

But then again... its either that OR.... the dead American civilians continue to pile up here in America.

If this creates more terrorists?
Well there is already one with a large network who will not stop as is.

[Kaz]

Um... isn't this getting a bit off topic?

I believe that one cannot really say that one "loves" ones country in the same way that one loves a person. Patriotism/Nationalism (whatever you want to call it) can make people blind, blind to past faults, blind to the fact that their country can be wrong. Healthy patriotism, "good" patriotism would be liking ones country (I am trying to avoid the word "love"), yet still seeing that it is not perfect, that a country can be wrong and that one must strive to help onew country be as perfect as it can. As I posted in another thread, because of Germany's violent history, all forms of patriotism are frowned on here. It is never mentioned openly, but one gets the distinct impression that patriotism is wrong and can lead to very bad things. This attitude probably makes it difficult for many Germans (including me) to interact well with Americans who consider patriotism to be one of the most natural things in the world. Things like the Congress singing "God bless America" makes me leave, turn off the TV, whatever. Understanding both sides viewpoints would ensure better interaction in the future. Whoa - I've wandered offtopic too, right?
At least, what I was trying to say is: Patriotism Nr 1 - you like your country, but keep your eyes open for its faults and strive to correct them. Patriotism Nr 2 - you are blinded by your feelings. You think that your country is the best, is perfect and cannot be wrong, an attitude displayed by some people I know. Patriotism Nr 3 - you are not at all patriotic, you do not understand why people would think such strange things. Patriotism Nr 4 - you occasionally feel that you like your country, that you enjoy living there, but then start feeling ashamed of yourself because of this, berate yourself that patriotism is not a good thing, and push this feeling to the back of your mind. I would fit in with Patriotism Nr 4, an attitude that is probably peculiar to Germans and other developed countries with violent recent histories. Feel free to add to my list of Patriotisms

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[skywalker]

Is there confusion here that being patriotic means agreeing with an administration. Would people who did not like 8 years of Bill Clinton be considered unpatriotic if they did not agree with that Government's direction. Does someone who does not agree with the Bush viewpoint become unpatriotic? Never confuse Patriotism with Approval Ratings. True Patriots do not necessarily follow any given path and do not fall in and out of it due to who is in power!

Mark