Is it Art??

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 09:52 AM

Be patient... I'm trying to do the cut & paste thingie....

I HAVE NOW FINISHED: FEEL FREE TO POST NOW IF YOU WANT TO! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Here is the first:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Michael Jackson made some great music in the past. Doesn't mean his new album is relevant or even 'good' does it?

I stand by what I said. A journalist is only as good as his last article. If he's out of the loop, he's out of the know.

I do have a signed copy of 'distant voices' BTW. Also, my mother-in-law would say I'm speaking heresy... ...but there you go.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 09:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Michael Jackson made some great music in the past. Doesn't mean his new album is relevant or even 'good' does it?

I stand by what I said. A journalist is only as good as his last article. If he's out of the loop, he's out of the know.

Imo, Michael Jackson NEVER made great music!

John Pilger is STILL greatly respected, and very knowledgeable! You cannot take an article from the Mirror (of all papers!) as an example of his usual style (though I can't imagine why he writes for them, apart from the money). The Mirror does NOT like facts and figures. Pilger produces them with ease, when called for, in other areas of the media.

You wouldn't like to be judged on one piece of music you wrote, would you, if it had been designed for a particular audience, but was not what you would prefer to have produced? And journalists have rather less freedom of expression than musicians! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Fljotsdale, Michael Jackson was an incredible child vocalist by anyones standards. The guy was brilliant by any definition of class vocal performance. Tone, control, emotion, timing, soul, energy, interpretation. Genius.

The albums he recorded with Quincey Jones, one of the worlds most respected producers, and a man oozing class and musical brilliance, went on to sell monsterous amounts proving that his music was relevant. It struck a chord with a large number of people, and both reflected and inspired a generation, in terms of dance, music video approach, vocalisations and songwriting/production.

To say Michael Jackson never made great music is to place ones own taste above the historical and cultural significance of an artist.

For the record I don't own a Michael Jackson record, and don't enjoy his music.

He did in the past, make relevant, great music in the opinions of his peers, fellow craftsmen and millions upon millions of fellow humans.

As he has gone on, his estrangement from his muse - his dislocation from normality - has decreased the relevance of his music.

I would argue that the same can happen with a journalist, and that as age catches up, earlier views can become set in stone despite the world moving on.

When I read the Pilger article(s) in question, I read paranoia. I saw no factual figures, no supporting evidence for the conspiracy theory he was hypothesising. Only his much lauded opinion resting on the laurels of previous success.

I'm sorry, but I'm more cynical of the media than to swallow sensationalism like that unquestioningly. Reputation or no, the onus is on him to provide proof rather than wild speculation about motives and causes.

Hard journalism is fact driven.

Oh, Fljotsdale, no I certainly would not like it, but that is the way it works. I've been made painfully aware of that fact in the past. I'm still in the kitchen though.

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:11 AM

'Good on yer' for staying in the kitchen! [img]smile.gif[/img]

But doesn't everyone put their own musical preference ahead of every other music type, regardless of popularity or 'genius' of the artiste?
I have very catholic tastes in music myself, liking SOME of many music types and artistes, (but by no means ALL of their stuff) - from Mozart to Meat Loaf, from Brahms to David Bowie, From Vaughn Williams to The Moody Blues, from Carl Orff to Bob Dylan..... you get the picture? And I dislike Jackson as much as I dislike Schoenberg (sp?) I can see no genius in either since they grate on my ears and my mind! Sorry!

As for Pilger - he is actually a very good reporter, regardless of anyone else's views. But he is by no means the ONLY reporter we listen to in the UK! Nor do we regard his pronouncements as cast in stone, lol! Funnily enough, most Brits are capable of weighing things up and forming their OWN opinions based partly on the information we are given and partly on 'reading between the lines, and partly on the innate scepticism of the general public as a whole. (I do not include readers of The Sun, The Mirror, and the News of the World in this generalisation). I think this is probably what most people anywhere do, even Australians, lol!

Mmmmm.... that bit in parenthesis may upset some readers of those rags... but hey! It's only my opinion! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:13 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:

But doesn't everyone put their own musical preference ahead of every other music type, regardless of popularity or 'genius' of the artiste?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POSTED BY YORICK
Er... no. Didn't I just do that? You did read my post didn't you? I did make my taste secondary in my brief appraisal of Michael Jackson.

What kind of music teacher would I be if I told my students what was good and bad based on my own taste? Some of us do have to look past such inconveniences.

Who was it that said "taste is the enemy of art"?

--------------------

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Er... no. Didn't I just do that? You did read my post didn't you? I did make my taste secondary in my brief appraisal of Michael Jackson.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

What kind of music teacher would I be if I told my students what was good and bad based on my own taste? Some of us do have to look past such inconveniences.

Who was it that said "taste is the enemy of art"?

[img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Being a teacher, you have a different viewpoint than most other people, I guess! [img]smile.gif[/img] I had to do the same thing with literature at university, but it did not change my opinion about much writing that was highly thought of, and some that many others disliked. Though I DID change my views about SOME.
Yes, I DID read your post, and noted you had no Jackson in your collection. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And 'taste' might be 'the enemy of art' but some so-called 'art' is just a big con-trick, imo! Some damn-fool exhibition of 'art' in London has a bare room with white walls and a light switching itself on/off at intervals of a few seconds. MY taste is definitely the enemy of this sort of 'art'! The guy who came up with this one is laughing his socks off, imo. What is artistic about switching a light on/off in a bare room with blank walls? If this is art, I'm a Philistine! There might be some value in it if there were objects in there, and lights came on from different angles to create varied shadow-effects, but as it is.....

Hey! If we are going to discuss this maybe it should go in GD since we are taking this thread off-topic? I think a lot of people might enjoy a music debate, Yorick... what do you think?

Totally off-topic again.... I have been 'off sick' in the forum the past few days so may have missed posts about the funeral... How did it go? And how are you and the family?

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:18 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:

And 'taste' might be 'the enemy of art' but some so-called 'art' is just a big con-trick, imo! Some damn-fool exhibition of 'art' in London has a bare room with white walls and a light switching itself on/off at intervals of a few seconds. MY taste is definitely the enemy of this sort of 'art'! The guy who came up with this one is laughing his socks off, imo. What is artistic about switching a light on/off in a bare room with blank walls? If this is art, I'm a Philistine! There might be some value in it if there were objects in there, and lights came on from different angles to create varied shadow-effects, but as it is.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------POSTED BY YORICK

'Modernist' art Fljotsdale. There is an ideology behind such work.

--------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

'Modernist' art Fljotsdale. There is an ideology behind such work. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Modernist - Shmodernist, Yorick!

The only ideology behind it seems to be 'let's make mugs of the public'! Anyway, I don't buy into it!

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:25 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:

Modernist - Shmodernist, Yorick! The only ideology behind it seems to be 'let's make mugs of the public'! Anyway, I don't buy into it!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POSTED BY YORICK

Well, the work provoked an intellectual and emotional response from you Fljotsdale. Like all good art.

Fljotsdale · 11-16-2001, 10:29 AM

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000154&p =2

RIGHT - I HAVE COPIED THE POSTS FROM PAGE ONE, AND HERE IS THE LINK TO PAGE 2 'COS IT IS TOO MUCH TO KEEP CUT&PASTING!

Anyone who is interested can post in here now! BUT PLEASE ADD POSTS IN HERE, NOT ON ORIGINAL THREAD. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

11-16-2001, 09:52 AM	#1
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	Be patient... I'm trying to do the cut & paste thingie.... I HAVE NOW FINISHED: FEEL FREE TO POST NOW IF YOU WANT TO! [img]smile.gif[/img] Here is the first: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Michael Jackson made some great music in the past. Doesn't mean his new album is relevant or even 'good' does it? I stand by what I said. A journalist is only as good as his last article. If he's out of the loop, he's out of the know. I do have a signed copy of 'distant voices' BTW. Also, my mother-in-law would say I'm speaking heresy... ...but there you go. [ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ] [ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ] [ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ] __________________ I\'m your imaginary friend.

11-16-2001, 09:58 AM	#2
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Michael Jackson made some great music in the past. Doesn't mean his new album is relevant or even 'good' does it? I stand by what I said. A journalist is only as good as his last article. If he's out of the loop, he's out of the know. Imo, Michael Jackson NEVER made great music! John Pilger is STILL greatly respected, and very knowledgeable! You cannot take an article from the Mirror (of all papers!) as an example of his usual style (though I can't imagine why he writes for them, apart from the money). The Mirror does NOT like facts and figures. Pilger produces them with ease, when called for, in other areas of the media. You wouldn't like to be judged on one piece of music you wrote, would you, if it had been designed for a particular audience, but was not what you would prefer to have produced? And journalists have rather less freedom of expression than musicians! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ I\'m your imaginary friend.

11-16-2001, 10:05 AM	#3
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Fljotsdale, Michael Jackson was an incredible child vocalist by anyones standards. The guy was brilliant by any definition of class vocal performance. Tone, control, emotion, timing, soul, energy, interpretation. Genius. The albums he recorded with Quincey Jones, one of the worlds most respected producers, and a man oozing class and musical brilliance, went on to sell monsterous amounts proving that his music was relevant. It struck a chord with a large number of people, and both reflected and inspired a generation, in terms of dance, music video approach, vocalisations and songwriting/production. To say Michael Jackson never made great music is to place ones own taste above the historical and cultural significance of an artist. For the record I don't own a Michael Jackson record, and don't enjoy his music. He did in the past, make relevant, great music in the opinions of his peers, fellow craftsmen and millions upon millions of fellow humans. As he has gone on, his estrangement from his muse - his dislocation from normality - has decreased the relevance of his music. I would argue that the same can happen with a journalist, and that as age catches up, earlier views can become set in stone despite the world moving on. When I read the Pilger article(s) in question, I read paranoia. I saw no factual figures, no supporting evidence for the conspiracy theory he was hypothesising. Only his much lauded opinion resting on the laurels of previous success. I'm sorry, but I'm more cynical of the media than to swallow sensationalism like that unquestioningly. Reputation or no, the onus is on him to provide proof rather than wild speculation about motives and causes. Hard journalism is fact driven. Oh, Fljotsdale, no I certainly would not like it, but that is the way it works. I've been made painfully aware of that fact in the past. I'm still in the kitchen though. [ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Yorick ] __________________ I\'m your imaginary friend.

11-16-2001, 10:11 AM	#4
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	'Good on yer' for staying in the kitchen! [img]smile.gif[/img] But doesn't everyone put their own musical preference ahead of every other music type, regardless of popularity or 'genius' of the artiste? I have very catholic tastes in music myself, liking SOME of many music types and artistes, (but by no means ALL of their stuff) - from Mozart to Meat Loaf, from Brahms to David Bowie, From Vaughn Williams to The Moody Blues, from Carl Orff to Bob Dylan..... you get the picture? And I dislike Jackson as much as I dislike Schoenberg (sp?) I can see no genius in either since they grate on my ears and my mind! Sorry! As for Pilger - he is actually a very good reporter, regardless of anyone else's views. But he is by no means the ONLY reporter we listen to in the UK! Nor do we regard his pronouncements as cast in stone, lol! Funnily enough, most Brits are capable of weighing things up and forming their OWN opinions based partly on the information we are given and partly on 'reading between the lines, and partly on the innate scepticism of the general public as a whole. (I do not include readers of The Sun, The Mirror, and the News of the World in this generalisation). I think this is probably what most people anywhere do, even Australians, lol! Mmmmm.... that bit in parenthesis may upset some readers of those rags... but hey! It's only my opinion! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] [ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ] __________________ I\'m your imaginary friend.

11-16-2001, 10:16 AM	#6
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Er... no. Didn't I just do that? You did read my post didn't you? I did make my taste secondary in my brief appraisal of Michael Jackson. [img]smile.gif[/img] What kind of music teacher would I be if I told my students what was good and bad based on my own taste? Some of us do have to look past such inconveniences. Who was it that said "taste is the enemy of art"? [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] Being a teacher, you have a different viewpoint than most other people, I guess! [img]smile.gif[/img] I had to do the same thing with literature at university, but it did not change my opinion about much writing that was highly thought of, and some that many others disliked. Though I DID change my views about SOME. Yes, I DID read your post, and noted you had no Jackson in your collection. [img]smile.gif[/img] And 'taste' might be 'the enemy of art' but some so-called 'art' is just a big con-trick, imo! Some damn-fool exhibition of 'art' in London has a bare room with white walls and a light switching itself on/off at intervals of a few seconds. MY taste is definitely the enemy of this sort of 'art'! The guy who came up with this one is laughing his socks off, imo. What is artistic about switching a light on/off in a bare room with blank walls? If this is art, I'm a Philistine! There might be some value in it if there were objects in there, and lights came on from different angles to create varied shadow-effects, but as it is..... Hey! If we are going to discuss this maybe it should go in GD since we are taking this thread off-topic? I think a lot of people might enjoy a music debate, Yorick... what do you think? Totally off-topic again.... I have been 'off sick' in the forum the past few days so may have missed posts about the funeral... How did it go? And how are you and the family? [ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ] __________________ I\'m your imaginary friend.

11-16-2001, 10:13 AM	#5
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Fljotsdale: But doesn't everyone put their own musical preference ahead of every other music type, regardless of popularity or 'genius' of the artiste? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- POSTED BY YORICK Er... no. Didn't I just do that? You did read my post didn't you? I did make my taste secondary in my brief appraisal of Michael Jackson. What kind of music teacher would I be if I told my students what was good and bad based on my own taste? Some of us do have to look past such inconveniences. Who was it that said "taste is the enemy of art"? -------------------- [ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

11-16-2001, 10:18 AM	#7
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Fljotsdale: And 'taste' might be 'the enemy of art' but some so-called 'art' is just a big con-trick, imo! Some damn-fool exhibition of 'art' in London has a bare room with white walls and a light switching itself on/off at intervals of a few seconds. MY taste is definitely the enemy of this sort of 'art'! The guy who came up with this one is laughing his socks off, imo. What is artistic about switching a light on/off in a bare room with blank walls? If this is art, I'm a Philistine! There might be some value in it if there were objects in there, and lights came on from different angles to create varied shadow-effects, but as it is..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------POSTED BY YORICK 'Modernist' art Fljotsdale. There is an ideology behind such work. -------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

11-16-2001, 10:23 AM	#8
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: 'Modernist' art Fljotsdale. There is an ideology behind such work. [img]smile.gif[/img] Modernist - Shmodernist, Yorick! The only ideology behind it seems to be 'let's make mugs of the public'! Anyway, I don't buy into it! __________________ I\'m your imaginary friend.

11-16-2001, 10:25 AM	#9
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Modernist - Shmodernist, Yorick! The only ideology behind it seems to be 'let's make mugs of the public'! Anyway, I don't buy into it! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- POSTED BY YORICK Well, the work provoked an intellectual and emotional response from you Fljotsdale. Like all good art.

11-16-2001, 10:29 AM	#10
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000154&p =2 RIGHT - I HAVE COPIED THE POSTS FROM PAGE ONE, AND HERE IS THE LINK TO PAGE 2 'COS IT IS TOO MUCH TO KEEP CUT&PASTING! Anyone who is interested can post in here now! BUT PLEASE ADD POSTS IN HERE, NOT ON ORIGINAL THREAD. [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ] __________________ I\'m your imaginary friend.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)