Illinois Death Row Clemency

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by madjim: The so called "western world" can hold it's nose all it wants over the death penalty. I prefer it. No person executed has ever hurt anyone again. I can cite case after case where killers were some how released only to kill again. In New York state a double murderer of children was released - he became a serial killer who murdered women in central NY In Pa - a man murdered a State trooper did 30 years and then murdered his neighbor over a minor disagreement. Pa - biker kills women after she refuses to have sex with ALL of his friends. He shots her in the face an dumps body in quarry. Original sentence is life but he is released despite the sentencing judges recomendation that the bastard never be released again. Yep, he was paroled and yep he murdered a NJ Sate Polceman. Heres one: Dear soul kidnapps a women, robs her, beats her, drags her behind a car on the highway with speeds past 50 MPH, then rapes her. She dies. Fortunately he did it it in Alabama - so he was executed. How about armed robbers known as the "Hi Fi Killers" - robbed a music store - raped the female employees and then forced them at gun point to drink drain cleaner - which killed them. Death penalty deserved- you bet? So you folks just keep holding your nose - I'll keep voting to pull the switch.

So you don't want to try and stop other people doing this kind of thing, you just want to kill people once they've done it? It has been proven time and time again that killing people in retaliation for their crimes does not act as an effective deterrant. The only thing that truly does act as an effective deterrant against violent crime is social inclusion. People commit crimes like these because they don't have the same value of human life as a law abiding person - they believe that human life is not as important as fulfilling their own goals. Until we have a society that actually does value human life as paramount, in everything it does, then we won't have a society that can effectivly discourage the use of violence as a means to an end. By consitutionally favoring the use of violence to solve your problems (through the death penalty) the state is not helping to stop violent crime. It is encouraging it.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: If granting the Clemency is a miscarriage of justice, MagiK, then are you saying that in the states where there is no death penalty there is no justice? It is an injustice to the victims to wave a magic wand and declare everyones sentence commuted. [edit: And to correct the error, individual review hearings on these cases were done, rather extensively, over the last few months.] Problem with the death penalty is % error. Error in a conviction is not so damaging when you can correct your error later and let the guy out. But, with death, you can never undo your screw-up. There are cases where the crime is undeniable and the perpetrator is known (the MD/VA sniper duo for example) in which case, the DP should be done swiftly with a minimum of fuss. Cerek's point about relative cost is well-taken. Death row inmates recieved guartanteed appeals - over and over again - much more costly than a lifetime in prison. So fix the system, don't let the scum live [img]smile.gif[/img] Your a lawyer, you can do it..I know you can With our system the defendant gets rail-roaded. Now, not OJ - he's rich and can afford the good lawyers and the long fight. gasp!!!! You think OJ might be guilty? But, even in this "innocent until proven guilty" society the accused are so un-trusted by juries and the accusers (cops) are overwhelming trusted. I have seen three men go to jail for decades apiece when the only evidence against them (and their word) was the honest face of ONE police officer. No other evidence - no nothing. You've just got to see it to believe it. The state doesn't even have to try. I agree that the system needs fixed...so why isn't anone doing it? I mean is it so hard to correct a broken system? In such a system, the death penalty is one more stop on the railroad. What really irks me are the folks who get convinced to plead guilty and then still get the death penalty. Those cases are almost ALWAYS due to a lying prosecutor cheating someone who doesn't know the system. Again, why are these scum prosecutors punished? why is this kind of thing tolerated by the Justice system and its offcials? Just some thoughts. Philosophically, I think some criminals deserve the death penalty - and we can argue of which ones of course. But, in practice I think the rate of error plus the gravity of error make the death penalty very difficult to implement. Can't argue with you there, the results are self evident. It is a completly sickening situation

[Attalus]

Barry, I'll have to go with Madjim. No executed person ever killed anyone else. There are some crimes that are just too heinous to risk letting the perpetuator to live. And, Yorick, killing isn't always murder. Sometimes it is justified.

Since some people do not seem to know the definitions...here we go!

MURDER:
Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous (the traffic was murder) b : something outrageous or blameworthy (getting away with murder)

Main Entry: 2murder
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): mur·dered; mur·der·ing /'m&r-d(&-)ri[ng]/
Date: 13th century
transitive senses
1 : to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice
2 : to slaughter wantonly : SLAY
3 a : to put an end to b : TEASE, TORMENT c : MUTILATE, MANGLE (murders French) d : to defeat badly
intransitive senses : to commit murder
synonym see KILL


KILL:
Main Entry: 1kill
Pronunciation: 'kil
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, perhaps from (assumed) Old English cyllan; akin to Old English cwellan to kill -- more at QUELL
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 a : to deprive of life b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering
2 a : to put an end to (kill competition) b : DEFEAT, VETO (killed the amendment) c : to mark for omission; also : DELETE
3 a : to destroy the vital or essential quality of (killed the pain with drugs) b : to cause to stop (kill the motor) c : to check the flow of current through
4 : to make a markedly favorable impression on
5 : to get through uneventfully (kill time); also : to get through (the time of a penalty) without being scored on (kill a penalty)
6 a : to cause extreme pain to b : to tire almost to the point of collapse
7 : to hit (a shot) so hard in various games that a return is impossible
8 : to consume (as a drink) totally
intransitive senses
1 : to deprive one of life
2 : to make a markedly favorable impression
synonyms KILL, SLAY, MURDER, ASSASSINATE, DISPATCH, EXECUTE mean to deprive of life. KILL merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner (killed in an accident) (frost killed the plants). SLAY is a chiefly literary term implying deliberateness and violence but not necessarily motive (slew thousands of the Philistines). MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility . ASSASSINATE applies to deliberate killing openly or secretly often for political motives (terrorists assassinated the Senator). DISPATCH stresses quickness and directness in putting to death (dispatched the sentry with one bullet). EXECUTE stresses putting to death as a legal penalty (executed by lethal gas).


SLAY:
Main Entry: slay
Pronunciation: 'slA
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): slew /'slü/; also esp in sense 2 slayed; slain /'slAn/; slay·ing
Etymology: Middle English slen, from Old English slEan to strike, slay; akin to Old High German slahan to strike, Middle Irish slachta stricken
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 : to kill violently, wantonly, or in great numbers; broadly : to strike down : KILL
2 : to delight or amuse immensely
intransitive senses : KILL, MURDER
synonym see KILL
- slay·er noun (see also Buffy)

WAR:
Main Entry: 1war
Pronunciation: 'wor
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English werre, from Old North French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse
Date: 12th century
1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : STATE OF WAR b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
2 a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end (a class war) (a war against disease) c : VARIANCE, ODDS 3
- war·less /-l&s/ adjective

Main Entry: 2war
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): warred; war·ring
Date: 13th century
1 : to be in active or vigorous conflict
2 : to engage in warfare


EXECUTE:
Main Entry: ex·e·cute
Pronunciation: 'ek-si-"kyüt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French executer, back-formation from execution
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 : to carry out fully : put completely into effect (execute a command)
2 : to do what is provided or required by (execute a decree)
3 : to put to death especially in compliance with a legal sentence
4 : to make or produce (as a work of art) especially by carrying out a design
5 : to perform what is required to give validity to (execute a deed)
6 : PLAY (execute a piece of music)


[ 01-13-2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by Attalus: Barry, I'll have to go with Madjim. No executed person ever killed anyone else. There are some crimes that are just too heinous to risk letting the perpetuator to live. And, Yorick, killing isn't always murder. Sometimes it is justified.

At the risk of sounding silly, I have to say that idea: well, duh! [img]tongue.gif[/img] Of course no one who has been exectuted will kill anyone else, my point was that that is not the important thing. We are too wrapped up in what we do after the crime that we don't think about how we stop other people from doing the same. I know the criminal themselves will have to stop committing crime, but I would say that the presence of the death penalty merely encourages violent crime in other people. Its not just the criminal we need to worry about - its the rest of the society too. In the bad old days here in England we used to kill people for committing crime in one way or another and, strangely, people still kept on doing it. Thats my problem. The death penalty is a human rights abuse and solves nothing as far as the utility of society goes.

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: but I would say that the presence of the death penalty merely encourages violent crime in other people.

Don't suppose you have any concrete proof of this? or even a foundation that you can print? To me it looks like a completely baseless statement..

[quietman1920]

People, this is one of those topics where you are Not going to swing people's point of view to that of your own. Its best to just agree to disagree and understand that some people hold different points of view; it keeps things friendly and even tempered.

Now, if someone wants to make this a Poll, a statement could be made about the support of the issue by the board, but this just Isn't a Right vs Wrong Issue, no matter how strongly any of you may believe it to be.

LOL Qman you got that right! it just occasionally irks me to see some people make claims which have no factual studies on wich to hang them.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Yorick: I think an interesting issue is that America has no hesitation in applying it's values of human rights and morality to someplace like China and Iraq, but has a big problem when other nations apply their morality to America. Americans who support the death penalty: How is your view different from a Saudi Arabian who believes stoning a woman for adultery is right, just, fair and an apt deterrant? The issue is not whether you believe it's right or not - they believe they are right also. The issue is, the rest of the western world has a huge problem with the punishment. Try and view this objectively for one moment. Humour me. Remove your concepts of justice for just an instant, and try and look at how the west sees the practice. How would you expect tribal cannibals to react when the rest of the world tells them their honourable tradition of eating their enemies is repulsive? THEY may not have a problem with it, but WE do. NO OTHER NATION IN THE WEST KILLS IT'S CITIZENS LIKE AMERICA. Saudi Arabia, China Iraq and America lead the world in numbers of citizens it's government kills. That's heavy company. I for one see NO DIFFERENCE between murder and execution. Taking a life, is taking a life. In executing, the state becomes a murderer. Must you be a monster to punish a monster? Can you not see that in repaying evil for evil you become evil? The issue is not what the criminal gets, but what does society become. Does the criminal deserve death? YES. Should the criminal die? YES. Is their life forfeit for taking another life? YES Should society become a murderer to punish them? NO NO NO NO NO. I'll say it again. The issue is not the punishment the criminal receives - however just or unjust that may be - but what society becomes when punishing them. What are you becoming? As part of the nation, you are as guilty as the executioner of taking human life. Of ending a humans existence. Now. What if there's a mistake? Just say that the human you killed is innocent.

Great Post. I particularly like the part about the Heavy Company.

Yorick, All I can say is I disagree with you about executions of criminals and I also think you are being disingenuous when you compare the US death Penalty to the way oppressive regimes treat their citizens. It is one thing to kill innocent men and women in the streets and quite another to execute a criminal.

EDIT: You can also say that the USA is the one country that allows more people to live than any other country in the entire history of mankind. Our food programs and charitable contributions save more lives than those of the rest of the world combined (this from the world fact book)

[ 01-13-2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]