God and religion-what's it all about?

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Liliara: Hey Nachtrafe, get some sleep and take care of yourself before I have to come over there and make you do it!

Don't worry Liliara, he will and I've already set a date to be sure.

Cloudy, checking that airline schedule again

hmm.. come to think of it, he may take care of himself but the sleep thing......
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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 10-10-2001).]

Originally posted by Yorick: G'kar, how do you justify the contradictory nature of this statement? Surely by embracing all religions - even those that are opposite from each other - you are actually creating your own religion, a new ecumenical relgion seperate from say Monotheistic and exclusive religions such as Judaism and Islam. To be Islamic is to adhere to a set of behavioural patterns. The actions define the religion, so simply believing Mohummads teaching is not enough to be Islamic. Are you performing the necessary actions of Islam? I am being serious and not trying to initiate an argument. I am seeking to understand how you have justified the contradictory nature of ecumenicism.

Your answer is in my statement itself.

"to study and find for myself what beliefs serve a purpose in light of logic, intuition and conscience."

I accept all religions, but for personal beliefs in my daily spiritual practice, I choose from them what is correct to me, using my natural facilities.

"I discern between spirituality and religion."

I choose spirituality, unbounded by any certain religion.


Im sorry if I cant satisfy your intellect by quoting what I already posted. I am very tired, but I wanted to post at least a little answer for you.
perhaps I can provide more insight into my inner-workings at a later date.
Blessings,
Scott

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: Your answer is in my statement itself. "to study and find for myself what beliefs serve a purpose in light of logic, intuition and conscience." I accept all religions, but for personal beliefs in my daily spiritual practice, I choose from them what is correct to me, using my natural facilities. "I discern between spirituality and religion." I choose spirituality, unbounded by any certain religion. Im sorry if I cant satisfy your intellect by quoting what I already posted. I am very tired, but I wanted to post at least a little answer for you. perhaps I can provide more insight into my inner-workings at a later date. Blessings, Scott

Thanks for your reply Scott. What I think you're missing is that only some religions are mergable. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are exclusive relgions. The panthestic religions are in one sense ecumenical, yet cannot truly encompass an exclusive religion because it is a contradiction to do so.

Christianity for example has nothing to do with teachings. Christianity is not even a religion. It is just a word used to describe people in a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with attaining purity or holiness as per Buddhism or Hinduism or Judaism, and is not dependant on actions and rituals of atonement as per Islam.

Islam for example has little to do with beliefs and nothing to do with motives, but is defined by an adherants actions. It is "the way of peace".

Both cannot be sampled. They only "work" in entirety. By sampling them and incorperating them you are actually creating something new.

It's like mixing colours. When you mix red with white you get pink. Not both red and white. When you mix blue and yellow, you get green. Merging creates a new entity, because the originals are coherant only in entirety.

Jesus' Grace for example makes any actions of atonement or Dharma seeking totally unecessary and unworkable.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!


[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-11-2001).]

[250]

ignorance, ignorance, ignorance...

[250]

some questions to Yorick:

did you mean Christians can overlook "actions"?
how do you define "actions"?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by 250: some questions to Yorick: did you mean Christians can overlook "actions"? how do you define "actions"?

It means a Christian, once in a relationship with Christ can do anything. Any sin is forgiven, and no good deed gets you bonus points. Muslims I've spoken to have a big problem with this concept because they see it that a Christian could go and murder someone and just say sorry and everything's alright.

Technically they are correct.

However, if you love a woman do you intentionally hurt her? If she gives you a hug do you hit her? If she cooks you a meal do you throw it in her face?
Someone in a loving relationship would not generally do these things because they want the relationship to get stronger rather than weaker (and these things would severely weaken the relationship) and love involves wanting the best for the person you love.

The impetus for the Christian to not sin is because sin creates a block in communication. A barrier of our own making that can be difficult to remove if the Christian loses sight of the concept that Christ has bent over backwards to enable relationship and communication. All that is needed is to reach out and take his offer. Be humble. Apologise and continue the relationship.

I have learned so many aspects about the human-God relationship through analysing my own human-human relationships. I'm not alone there either. The ancient prophet Hosea 'received' the message he went and preached through having a wife named Gomer who continually cheated on him, and even prostituted herself.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[250]

Originally posted by Yorick: However, if you love a woman do you intentionally hurt her? If she gives you a hug do you hit her? If she cooks you a meal do you throw it in her face? Someone in a loving relationship would not generally do these things because they want the relationship to get stronger rather than weaker (and these things would severely weaken the relationship) and love involves wanting the best for the person you love.

haha, good example! why did you choose this one? by the way?

ok, so actions still matter, but God love you anyway, unlike a woman.

so, do you mean Islam have to use actions to acheive some kinda peace, while love from God is granted?

is that the only difference between Islam and Christianity?

by the way, whats wrong with having to have actions?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by 250: haha, good example! why did you choose this one? by the way? ok, so actions still matter, but God love you anyway, unlike a woman. so, do you mean Islam have to use actions to acheive some kinda peace, while love from God is granted? is that the only difference between Islam and Christianity? by the way, whats wrong with having to have actions?

That is the main difference yes. Muslims deny that Christ was God or the son of God, or that he was crucified at all. As he was their greatest prophet it's an offense to suggest he was executed as a common criminal.

But these are beliefs not application.

The tenet around humans needing Christs grace is that "purity" is unattainable. Sometimes any course of action we take is an evil or harmful act - a sin - in some way. "Robbing Peter to pay Paul", "the lesser of two evils". Living without commiting even small evils is impossible. Christs focusses on the heart. The ultimate judge yet someone who takes our consequence of imperfection on himself.

Islam has no messiah or saviour, so must be followed to the letter to "work". It is entirely possible that even from the Christian perspective Islam can indeed "work". However, on this earth, even the most devout Islamic does not have the same relationship with God that a person who follows Jesus does, as Islam is not about relating to God/Jesus in the same manner.

C.S.Lewis poses interesting thoughts on this matter in the allegory "The Last Battle".

The apostle Paul writes interesting thoughts when he speaks that people are judged on what they know.

There is the thinking that Christ is the way, truth and life, and enables humanity to have eternal life. This means any action a human takes is out of the equation, and the inner heart is what matters.

Choosing to believe is an action though is it not?

What of those born before Christ who had no chance of receiving him?

This school of thought allows for the possiblity that because of Jesus death, whoever desires to be with God in their soul will be - even if they are prevented from knowing him by preconceptions, bad witnesses, time, geography or situations of birth unfavourable to knowing Jesus.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-11-2001).]

[Yorick]

Basically Leo, in my life it has freed me up. I have no hangups about not doing "this or that" (even though I normally don't do "this or that" ). There is no guilt about being a failed and imperfect being, though there is humility and acknowledgement of it.

I feel as though I can enjoy life to it's fullest because of this.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[250]

thanks Yorick, you have pretty much explained Christianity

what about Islam? how do they get rewarded? by commiting good acts? that is the same as Buddism, is it not? (dont get into explaining Buddism yet, lets just focus on Islam right now please ) anyway

how do Islam acheive peace? how do they improve themselves?

are you saying that, without a relationship with higher (perfect) being, there is no chance for being better?