What do you think of GATS?

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Moridin: I don't know about max efficiency for our existing technology, but we could improve those numbers by just updating 'out-of-date' technology...think about the number of ineffiecient cars there are on the road, what if everyone drove a more fuel effiecient car...or if we start replacing coal plants with more eco-friendly energy plants. We need to continue to create new technology but we also have to start getting rid of the old, inefficient things as well.

Updating 'out-of date' technology is the best place to start I agree. More reserch could be done on new tech. But we have some other options in existance now that we could use.
Solar could be used, IMHO the deserts of Nevada would be a good place for that, lots of Govt. land realativly few days of cloud cover compared to the rest of the country.
Wind technology should be used more. My uncle invented the wind generator back during the energy crisis of '73 and gave the patent to the US govt. for free, to distribute. Unfortinantely the best locations for wind tech are probabily on the eastern side of the Rocky Mts. prime ranch and agriculture land. So that leaves us with the problem of food or energy.
Nuclear is another that IMHO we should use more, but that is a "whole-nother" fight in the in the USA.
Natural Gas should be used more, but there is still the problem of emissions, granted Natural Gas emissions are lower that coal. IMHO Natural Gas is probibily our best interum tech. but it takes time and money to build new plants, Enviromental impact studies, construction, Etc.


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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: The European efforts at colonization in the area known as the US today followed a different path than was typical in other parts of the world. Instead of the usual pattern of the European population remaining a minority governing/exploiting the native peoples, in the US the native peoples were for the most part wiped out and replaced by the Europeans. After the English colonies successfully rebelled against England, winning their political independence and setting up their own government, the new country of the US continued to expand in this same way, overrunning a vast area and almost entirely displacing the native peoples. So, it is a bit absurd to say that the US didn't participate much in colonizing. Much of the history of the US represents the most effective, ruthless, and total example at colonization in the history of the world. [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-09-2001).]

I am going to get picky, but that is NOT colonization, it is expansion...does it make it right? NO, but it is different! It was the EUROPEANS who originally came and displaced/destroyed the American Indians...it was the US that continued it.

What I meant by the US not participating in colonization is that we did not actively invade other countries (i.e. India, Australia, South Africa) and set up our own government to exploit the native peoples!

I am really getting disgusted by this turning into a "US is the worst" thread...if we are going to start talking about atrocities against other peoples...I think the US would be pretty far down on the list of perpetrating countries!



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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: I am going to get picky, but that is NOT colonization, it is expansion...does it make it right? NO, but it is different! It was the EUROPEANS who originally came and displaced/destroyed the American Indians...it was the US that continued it. What I meant by the US not participating in colonization is that we did not actively invade other countries (i.e. India, Australia, South Africa) and set up our own government to exploit the native peoples! I am really getting disgusted by this turning into a "US is the worst" thread...if we are going to start talking about atrocities against other peoples...I think the US would be pretty far down on the list of perpetrating countries!

I'll leave it to Diogenes to respond to this - however, your point that this is turning into a 'US is the worst' thread....

.....At present, given Bush's attitude towards the rest of the world, it is inevitable that there is going to be a certain amount of that. The rest of the world is angry about Kyoto, ABM and so on. What are we supposed to do, put up and shut up?

I have tried NOT to do 'US bashing' as such, that is one reason why I wanted to bring European colonisation in. However, INHO, the US has been the prime mover behind GATS and globalisation. Given my attitude towards both, which I think I've made pretty clear here, then yes, I am going to make statements which sound (and are!) negative as regards the US. I do not hate the US or her inhabitants, however, a happy slappy viewpoint that sees the US as some kind of kind benefactor of poorer countries is ridiculous, for all the reasons that I've already stated, and am not about to go into again. (Ditto for Britain, I might add).



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[Moridin]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: I have tried NOT to do 'US bashing' as such, that is one reason why I wanted to bring European colonisation in. However, INHO, the US has been the prime mover behind GATS and globalisation. Given my attitude towards both, which I think I've made pretty clear here, then yes, I am going to make statements which sound (and are!) negative as regards the US. I do not hate the US or her inhabitants, however, a happy slappy viewpoint that sees the US as some kind of kind benefactor of poorer countries is ridiculous, for all the reasons that I've already stated, and am not about to go into again. (Ditto for Britain, I might add).

How can you say that you have NOT tried to do 'US bashing'? Even bringing in European colonization you couldn't leave the US out of it...and it seems that it is always talk about the US Transnationals, and the US taking advantage of developing countries, and the US being the polluters, and the US this and the US that....well here is a clue, take a look to the east. With the formation of the European Union, the US will no longer be 1) The largest economy 2) The largest consumer 3) The largest polluter 4) The economy with the most Transnationals....and on and on....you sit and pick the US apart, but ignore the fact that a new and (un)improved US is forming right under your nose!!!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Thanks Diogenes, - I didn't put that very well when I wrote it! You have extracted the essence of what I mean with beautiful simplicity. I am very encouraged by your participation. For the last few posts, I have felt like I'm banging my head against a very hard brick wall. I think when you get people with completely different world views having a debate, it can be hard to get the point across. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels frustrated! (But I KNOW I'm right.........

Yeah, he's done the same for me! This is one really knowledgeable guy! AND he knows how to put a point across!

But keep up the good work, Silver Cheetah! You are bound to make a few cracks in that wall if you keep bashing away - and if Diogenes keeps using his sledgehammer!

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-09-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: How can you say that you have NOT tried to do 'US bashing'? Even bringing in European colonization you couldn't leave the US out of it...and it seems that it is always talk about the US Transnationals, and the US taking advantage of developing countries, and the US being the polluters, and the US this and the US that....well here is a clue, take a look to the east. With the formation of the European Union, the US will no longer be 1) The largest economy 2) The largest consumer 3) The largest polluter 4) The economy with the most Transnationals....and on and on....you sit and pick the US apart, but ignore the fact that a new and (un)improved US is forming right under your nose!!!

Goodness me Moridin!

Well, I don't like global capitalism in its present form. I don't like companies or governments that pursue proft AT THE EXPENSE of human and planetary well being. And that goes for British, Italian, Chinese, US or whatever.

The reason the US has come up so often is because of the reasons I gave in my last post. Please read. I am not going to write them again!

I approve of companies that try to work in harmony with the environment, and are concerned about quality of life for their employees, and who provide life enhancing, rather than damaging, goods and services. I approve of governments who make it clear BY THEIR ACTIONS that environmental and human rights issues are of prime importance to them. I am NOT pleased with the British government as far as environmental record goes, nor with polluting, exploiting, British origin transnationals, who are no better than transnationals originating from any country.

However, Europe has been the prime mover behind Kyoto, trying to get something in place to help limit the damage we're doing, and I acknowledge that.

Keep in mind that both Diogenes and I have also been responding to (what I at least see) as John D's glorification and idealisation of American actions and values. I felt it was important to get a bit of balance and reality in there!

PS. Orchard country is wonderful! Having v. nice time, in fact, am thinking about stopping until Tuesday.........



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[anomie]

Originally posted by Moridin: What I meant by the US not participating in colonization is that we did not actively invade other countries (i.e. India, Australia, South Africa) and set up our own government to exploit the native peoples!

No, the United States does not have to invade other countries when it can supply the favored indigenous ruling groups with guns and money. Of course, 'favored' is defined as the most pro-america ruler. Would you like a list of countries where this has occurred? I am not seeking to alter this discussion into a US-bashing session as such, but it seems like there is a lot of non-information and misinformation going on.

As for contemporary colonization, the GAT treaty, the WTO, and other 'high-level' organizations between Western countries are doing a fine job of making the rest of the world colonies in economic and cultural terms.



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[Moridin]

Originally posted by anomie: No, the United States does not have to invade other countries when it can supply the favored indigenous ruling groups with guns and money. Of course, 'favored' is defined as the most pro-america ruler. Would you like a list of countries where this has occurred?

Sure

And it's not always the most 'pro-America' ruler...but rather 'pro-Democracy'!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Moridin]

Originally posted by anomie: As for contemporary colonization, the GAT treaty, the WTO, and other 'high-level' organizations between Western countries are doing a fine job of making the rest of the world colonies in economic and cultural terms.

Is that GAT, GATT, or GATS? **sorry just being a smart-ass**

The WTO has 142 members, I am wagering a guess that they are not all western countries ...and please don't start in on "Well it was the western countries that started it...." I am well aware of that...but if the developing countries don't like what is going on in the WTO then why don't they just resign their membership? The western countries are not forcing them to remain members.

Why don't the devolping countries form their own trade alliance? If they are going to be hurt by trade (in either goods or services) then why would they even consider belonging to the WTO? Why not shut their borders to all western countries, and only allow trade b/w themselves.

The facts of the matter are that the Western Civilizations have advanced at a much faster pace than others. What was the cause of this...it has been stated; better climate, more resources, etc....but are we to sit here and constantly blame ourselves for this advancement? Some of it was at the cost of other countries citizens, and for that maybe they are entitled to retribution, but how much retribution will be enough? Let's face it, the sub-saharan countries are NEVER going to be as prosperous as the US...agian b/c of the reasons that the US has advanced quicker; climate, resources, etc....for them to even get close to our levels of quality of life (i.e. better sanitation, better hospitals, better education) it is going to take trade! There is no other way. If the country in question does not even have the proper resources to feed it's people then how are they going to find the resources to achieve our level of advancement?

The problem is that we want equality and all the benefits, but are not willing to accept any costs! The beneficial advancements and achievements of the western countries have all come with their own costs. And as unfortunate as it is, to bring the developing countries forward, there are going to be some costs involved, both for the western countries and for the developing countries.

I am all for trying to help the developing countries, but I am also well aware that to do so is going to cause problems along the way. We can give money to build better sanitation, we can supply the technology to build better sanitation, we can educate the citizens on better sanitation, but when this is all accomplished then what? Where do these countries come up with the money to sustain this improved sanitation? These countries are poor, the people are poor, and the governments are poor...we can give them all the technology and know-how that we have, we can give them money, but eventually they are going to have (pardon the phrase) learn to walk on their own.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Moridin]

Bumping for anybody still interested!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!