03-27-2003, 04:26 PM | #71 |
Zhentarim Guard
Join Date: February 24, 2003
Location: Indiana
Age: 61
Posts: 358
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But Grojlach, the point is that the First Amendment is a restriction on government, not a grant to say anything you like. You always could say anything you like, but the intent of 1st A was to prevent government from punishing you for so doing. "Congress shall make no law, etc." The First Amendment in no way obligates any person or company to provide a forum for you to express your opinion. Just as no Jehovah's Witness can barge into your home at dinnertime and lecture you and claim it as his First Amendment rights, the mall is not obligated to allow Mr. Downs to express his opinion on their grounds, either.
Timber Loftis, I am going to have to let the asbestos question slide. I am just not certain where I read that the variation of asbestos in Canada was not a health issue. I'll see if I can find it if you would be interested in reading it. And I'm not sure that my one argument does undercut the other. I agree that corporations can do things and hide behind their liability shield. What should be done, then, is eliminate the liability shield. If Congress wanted to really protect workers, they would remove the Worker's Comp cap, and eliminate the corporate shield so that the principals of the company are again responsible for their actions, and not just in cases of gross negligence or outright fraud. Let the workers prove their damages, and companies will factor that into the bottom line. Limiting the claims simply prevents the market from clearing, and the net result is damages end up being externalized, in the asbestos case, upon workers and their families, rather than upon the people who make the decisions to put people into harms way without informed consent. Cloudbringer, I do, in fact, take freedom pretty seriously. When I look at the changes I have seen in America since my childhood, I am dismayed, and have a fervent desire to do what I can to give my kids the same kind of advantages I had. Though I belittled the website about the sweatshops, I did explain myself, and more importantly, my criticism not aimed at harleyquinn, but at the politically charged website itself. I agreed early and often that unfairness should be dealt with if possible, but as I have nearly as often said, you must correct that unfairness with fairness, not with yet more unfairness. I am definitely not hot under the collar -- I was actually hoping that maybe, just maybe, I would be able to show at least a few people the extent to which our nation has changed, in many ways for the worse, IMO, in employee relations and many other ways. I believe it was Lord Acton who said of the United States, "The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion of equality made vain the hope for freedom." Anyway, if anyone was offended by tone or semantics, I apologize. |
03-27-2003, 04:51 PM | #72 | ||
40th Level Warrior
Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
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03-27-2003, 05:11 PM | #73 |
Zhentarim Guard
Join Date: February 24, 2003
Location: Indiana
Age: 61
Posts: 358
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Yes, Timber, I did read it, but it just seemed to me that it got lost in the discussion again. I suppose I should have just quoted the appropriate posts, but I guess I was just too lazy to reload page one. I think the same point was made by several people, including an extensive reply from Cerek, IIRC.
And, yes, I know it is hard getting people to think about things another way. Gawd, it took me several years after reading the likes of deToqueville, Bastiat, Jefferson, Mill, Paine, and the rest of that ilk to swing me into libertarian, and maybe even into market-capitalist territory. The arguments were there, and in retrospect they were obvious, but I refused to let go of my prejudices. I could still be swayed, I suppose, but it would probably have to start with a refuation of Bastiat's Broken Window, which was the starting point for my change in worldview... |
03-27-2003, 05:50 PM | #74 | |
Zartan
Join Date: May 2, 2001
Location: Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum
Age: 43
Posts: 5,281
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Quote:
I only dragged the First Amendment into my post to help to illustrate why I wouldn't defend Stephen Downs if he wore a "NUKE IRAQ" message on his t-shirt; it's both distasteful and close to being a message of Hate (which I assumed was being dealt with in the First Amendment in the US); but like I said in my previous post, I'm not too familiar with the exact definition of the First Amendment and how it compares to European equivalents, nor am I even sure if it's that particular part of the law I should be referring to (but I'm referring to whatever part of US law makes discriminatory and similar remarks punishable by law). Sorry if there's been some confusion over that. But my addressing of the First Amendment for that last part wasn't really connected to the rest of my opinions. [img]smile.gif[/img] |
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03-27-2003, 09:47 PM | #75 |
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 3,257
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Grojlach - First of all, I'm relieved that you weren't angered by my post. As I said, I am having this same debate in two separate forums...and it has become quite heated in my private debate. So I've had to just step back from both debates for awhile, so that my frustration from one thread doesn't "spill over" unfairly into the other.
I'll grant that my example of "Nuke Iraq" was a by-product of that and WAS a bit "over the top". Your examples of equivalent "pro war" messages was much better. After extensive discussion on the "Peace T-shirt" incident, I've reached several conclusions. The only "bad guy" in this story is the mall itself. While they do have a right to institute whatever policies they deem necessary...this was obviously a "knee jerk" reaction to a previous incident. On Dec 21, a large group of Peace Protestors came to the mall - many of whom wore "Peace T-shirts". According to reports from the mall, the "peace protest" degenerated into a "near riot". However....I have not been able to find ANY verification of this AT ALL!!! If ANYBODY can find an article documenting a different version that supports the malls accusation...I would LOVE to see it. So - the mall institutes a ban on all "message apparal". An ill advised policy at best, since it was almost certain to lead to just such an incident as occurred with Stephen Downs. Then - when their policy "blew up in their face", they make the securtiy guard a scapegoat and place all the blame on him. So the didn't have the backbone to stand behind thier own policy. I support Stephen Downs right to state his opinion and I don't have any problem at all with his shirt or his son's. I also support his right to "test" the mall's policy...but I do NOT support his reaction of claiming to be an innocent victim when he learned that the mall would enforce it's policy. He broke the rules and refused to remove the shirt or leave the premises. His arrest was the result of his own chosen actions. Robert Williams is the true victim in this case (IMO, of course). He had worked as a guard at the mall for 9 years and was simply doing the job he had been told to do by his supervisor (who quickly refused to take any responsibility for the incident). And he was fired for doing his job. The irony is that - if he had NOT approached Downs and asked him to remove his shirt - the mall would have had legitimate grounds for dismissal since they could prove he was NOT doing his job of "enforcing mall policy". In addition, Crossgates has told him they will NOT be paying Unemployment Benefits, so he shouldn't even bother filing. This is the largest injustice in this whole affair.
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[img]\"http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/cerek/cerektsrsig.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Cerek the Calmth |
03-27-2003, 10:21 PM | #76 |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
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Welcome Thorfinn, one self empolyed business owner to another! Preach it Brother Preach it!
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
03-27-2003, 10:27 PM | #77 | |||
Quintesson
Join Date: September 12, 2001
Location: Ewing, NJ
Age: 42
Posts: 1,079
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IIRC an "asbestiform" has to be 3 microns in width, not 2. But I may be recalling "3" from the 0.3 micron standard for HEPA filters, so you may be right. Quote:
[ 03-27-2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Seraph ] |
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03-27-2003, 11:38 PM | #78 |
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
Join Date: September 15, 2002
Location: Kennewick, WA
Age: 52
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This is to intense for me to interupt now.I'll just keep watching from the sidelines (behind the couch) [img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]
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03-28-2003, 05:41 AM | #79 | |
Apophis
Join Date: July 10, 2001
Location: By a big blue lake, Canada
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OK I´ve tried to dig up some information about the demonstration that nearly developed into a riot. There is not much to be found. Apparently Women against war made a protest at the Crossgate mall, but they were escorted off the premesis by secutrity. The only interesting piece of information is this:
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03-28-2003, 08:13 AM | #80 | |
Jack Burton
Join Date: March 1, 2001
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