Is Peace profitable? Is sickness prevention profitable?

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Oh, and MagiK, we had to wait for a socialist government to have the remaining 20% of health bills paid for all people who can't afford the extra cost. And France is not going into bankrupcy yet ...

Moiraine didn't mention ' socialist state' in this post.

Sorry all. I'll get me coat! [/QUOTE]Donut, you are the last true Knight in this world, even if you are a Brit !

[Donut]

Originally posted by Attalus: ]Actually, the only way that Britain and the other countries that have socialized medicine can afford it is that the USA has to maintain the only decent armed forces that maintain order, keep the sea lanes open, etc. We simply cannot afford socialized medicine. Nice for those of you that do.

Keeping the sea lanes open? Who tried to close them?

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by MagiK: Edit: No I do believe I hit the right "ism" The idea in socialism is that everyones basic needs get met, regardless their rank or station

Yes - but even Karl Marx (and Engells) made the distinction between utopian socialism and scientific socialism. For more - read the "Das Capital"

Communism (litt. common ownership of property) is a development on Socialism (by Lenin), where revolutions should make way for a classless society: "from everbody after ability - to everybody after need." (roughly) - no Communist state ever reached that point.

(except that the leaders are more worthy than the common peasent)

And this isn't the case in every country - even USA.

-------------

In Denmark we have free social and medical care (and free schools - something I've reaped the benefits of) - the cost is that we pay 50-60% taxes. But it is only a tiny minorety that would abolish the 'velfare state'. People see the benefits of a social network (incl. hospitals).

[ 10-25-2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Ar-Cunin ]

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: ]Actually, the only way that Britain and the other countries that have socialized medicine can afford it is that the USA has to maintain the only decent armed forces that maintain order, keep the sea lanes open, etc. We simply cannot afford socialized medicine. Nice for those of you that do.

Keeping the sea lanes open? Who tried to close them?[/QUOTE][img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

but more seriously - every country has its own prioreties.

In the US this includes gigantic military spending to defend itself from forign enemies (real and percieved) - European contries also maintain military forces - but seem to find money for other things as well (incl. heathcare)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Why should a doctor have to take what the state is paying them for practiceing their trade?? Maybe all of you infavor of socialized medicine should be forced to take what the state will pay you for whatever work it is that you do. Being a doctor is a marketable skill , just like any other training. Skils go to the highest bidder. If you cant afford something they you dont get it. Health care shouldnt be just given freely.Sickness and disease are natures way of controlling the population after all.

And why is money the only incentive, the only reward worth pursuing?

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Oh, and MagiK, we had to wait for a socialist government to have the remaining 20% of health bills paid for all people who can't afford the extra cost. And France is not going into bankrupcy yet ...

Moiraine didn't mention ' socialist state' in this post.

Sorry all. I'll get me coat!

Im sorry. Am I supposed to disregard a persons statements and only remember the ones in the current issue? Guess I need to learn the proper form. Lets see. Donut says.... Ahh skip it [img]smile.gif[/img] I'll just let you remind me [img]smile.gif[/img]

And by the way, Moiraine did mention a socialist government. Read back a ways.[/QUOTE]

[ 10-25-2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Paying attention to what people REALLY say is basic courtesy.

very good backhanded insult after an apology [img]smile.gif[/img] good form there.

"Oh, and MagiK, we had to wait for a socialist government"

This is exactly what you said. You said you had a socialist government, which is not true. You have a Republic with a socialist PARTY that is or was in power. Before you got nasty there I was giving you the benefit of the doubt since English may not be your first language so I didn't want to pick on your phraseology. But since you made such a big stink about it.... I interpreted your words in an acceptable way and retract my apology. I will beg your pardon instead, for attempting to be gracious.

[ 10-25-2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

The state gets the $$$ to cover health care by SETTING LIMITS on what Doctors can charge. "UNFAIR!" you say - "I want my anaestesiologist to make $1.2 mil. a year 'cause he deserves it and his country club dues are really expensive!"

Actually, the reason we are so cool with doctors charging so much is likely (1) time investment to become a doctor, and (2) medical school is really f** expensive. Well, either subsidize doctors' med school expenses or set limits on tuition hikes as well (god, do we need this in America - and you Americans on this thread should ask the Euros how expensive their school is). Then, you take away part of the justification - and for the better good of all.

Step 2, limit the amount recoverable for "pain and suffering" and "emotional" damages in medical malpractice cases. We've done this in a hell of a lot of other parts of the law - even phen fen spurred such claims-limiting measures. You would not believe what lowering their insurance premiums will save doctors and hospitals per year.

Step 3, since we're starting in that direction, clean up problems with the insurance system an industry - the root of our health care woes. This is too big a can of worms to open here, and should be another topic. But, I will say that a pimply 18-year-old looking at a coverage matrix in some office has no business telling the Doctor on the phone who wants to approve a needed surgery that "no, we don't cover that." Likewise, insurance means nothing if you declare bankruptcy, reform your company under the reorganization bankruptcy chapter, and leave people literally out in the cold every time a plane hits a building, a hurrican makes landfall, or any other disaster happens. Bullshit Ins. Co's - the single biggest evil in the world today. Sorry, I know I said it should be another topic.

So long as a decent life is available in the profession, people will still be doctors. Either that, of Hipocratus was all screwed up to begin with. So, we reduce the cost to become a Doctor and limit the amount chargeable for certain services. There's no need for it to be the equivalent of winning the lottery.

Originally posted by Moiraine: Donut, you are the last true Knight in this world, even if you are a Brit !

If he were truly a knight I would challenge him to a joust, As it is, his premise was incorect anyway.

And while we are on the subject, you mentioned that paying attention to what someone really says is common courtesy. I wonder if you really want to compare that particular issue around the board? I think mistakes, both unintentional and purpously spiteful and intentional are quite prevelent around here and I may not be the biggest offender. just food for thought.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: The state gets the $$$ to cover health care by SETTING LIMITS on what Doctors can charge. "UNFAIR!" you say - "I want my anaestesiologist to make $1.2 mil. a year 'cause he deserves it and his country club dues are really expensive!" Why not start this with your very own profession? Im thinking that the $180 an hour my divorce attourney charged for having his secretary print a half dozen forms was a bit expensive. I think $15 or $20 an hour should be plenty. Not to mention that those 6 forms took 3 weeks and $3000 to produce (it was an uncontested and amicable seperation, I shudder to think what would have happened if we had fought over things)

[ 10-25-2002, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]