Class change question

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

I thought I would try taking the pure casters to Hybrids at Lvl 12. Priests to Lords, Alch. to Ninja, and Mages to Samurai. I noticed that some areas of their magic is not as powerful as before; only some things not all. What's the reason for this and how long will it take before they actually gain any benefits from casting again?
I tried to keep their fighting stats. up for when the change occurred but they're just not that good. Should I hold out or stick a fork in it. Even their weapons skills don't seem to change much after combat?

[Ziggurat]

I have tried this. I can see a Priest to a Lord, maybe Alchemist to Ninja, definately not Mage to Samurai but maybe to Bishop. The problem here is you lose 5 levels of improving the (where's that **** manual when you need it!!!) basic magic class skills such as wizardry and alchemy when you go to a hybrid. You still go up in secondary skills (such as elements) when you cast spells. Your main magic improvement is frozen. Your fighting skills will not be that good, as these hybrids take about ten or more levels to get decent. Like you, I was expecting more.

It makes slightly more sense to go the other way. Get the fighting skills and then go to purebred magickers. But you lose the armor and use of certain weapons. Stealth remains. Certain character changes can use similar but often not the same weapons (staves, etc.).

I occasionally change a character profession, but there has to be a pretty good reason (for example, to gain stealth, use of a certain weapon, or just for fun when the party is pretty strong without the character anyway).

I should add, many here think you can class change and be even stronger if you "Plan Ahead". This means getting your stats and abilities to certain levels before you make the wise change. This starts when you first create your party, and from there you must carefully build certain stats knowing where/when you are going to switch classes. This is long term strategy. If you switch without a clear plan, often they are worse off. Of course, you can always switch back!

[ 07-07-2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Thanks Zig.
I think I'll go another lvl or two with these guys and see what happens. Maybe next time I'll reverse it; get all those hit points early!

[ChaosTheorist]

I thought I would try taking the pure casters to Hybrids at Lvl 12. Priests to Lords, Alch. to Ninja, and Mages to Samurai. I noticed that some areas of their magic is not as powerful as before; only some things not all. What's the reason for this and how long will it take before they actually gain any benefits from casting again?

Don't forget that you give up class-specific skill bonuses when you change classes. For example, say your Alchemist's displayed Alchemy skill level on the Skills page was 100. The character's "real" Alchemy was 80. When you changed the Alchemist to a Ninja, the Alchemy value that carried over was the "real" value, not the class-bonused value, so you now have a Ninja with an Alchemy skill of 80, not 100. I don't know the algorithm for mashing together Character Level, Mastery Skill, Realm skill, spell level, and whatever else is used to determine how "well" (i.e. colors of the Power Level options) a character can cast a particular spell, but the Mastery Skill component of that calculation took a 20% hit when you did the class change.

I'm not sure if the magic skills become "closed" in this situation or not. Check your Samurai's Skills page and see if the Alchemy skill and Realm skills are in grey rather than white or yellow. Or if, when you right-click on those skills, you get the "This skill is closed for this character" message in the box. If so, then the skill won't improve from use until it opens up again, presumably after the Samurai reaches level 5.

FWIW (i.e, not much), as "compensation" for the loss/temporary closure of Alchemy, you got a 25% bonus when carrying over the Mage's Critical Strike skill--which didn't exist, of course. Though I think the game may put a "floor" value (maybe 5) on class-specific skills, so your Samurai traded 20 points in Alchemy for 5 points in Critical Strike.

[Wereboar]

ChaosTheorist told the reason for the lower magic abilities. In addition, you can't improve magic (by casting or level-up) until you reach level 5 in your hybrid class.

The fighting stats raise slow? Thats normal. I mean, you are a level 1 samurai, and it usually takes 2-3 fights in the monastary to raise one points (expert mode; faster in normal or easy). In fact, the fights might be not as long as the early ones, which leads to less hits, and less chances to improve the skills. In addition, a pure (say) samurai might have better strengt and dexterity at level 1 than your character has now, which is another reason for your slow advancement.

In addition, i'm pretty sure that the profession level is used in things like critical hits (and instant kill spells). So don't expect samurai and ninja to do much criticals, since their profession level will 10 lower than the average monster level. I don't think there's a similar drawback for the Lord. For the common class change to fighter, the ability to knock out opponents is probably too linked to class level, so a bard-fighter will do it moch less often than a pure fighter.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Thanks; that's useful stuff. I really wanted the Teleport spells and then switch them over. I think eventually they will improve their fighting skills; but in my opinion you still can't beat the hard hit of a fighter!

[ScottG]

In addition remember what class skills your giving up by transfer OR are improving through leveling up.

Hybrid to Pure:
You loose most of your combat abilites (weapons use, armor, special skills....) during a time when your more likely to need them (IMO) UNLESS you have party members that can fill this role (melee/ranged). If your characters are all hybrids than you can have a rotation point with respect to dualing. In otherwords keep two hybrids as hybrids at dual-time - when its time to dual the others back to hybrids then dual the final two hybrids. (Considering game timing and experience point/leveling-up this method isn't very effective unless you have only a 4 member party.)

Focusing on detriments-
For instance: Samurai to Mage looses sword, dual wield, armor, lightning strike, etc. - but keeps critical strike (though doesn't improve it). The upside is of course that they are improving their magic skills and level at a faster rate.

Pure to Hybrid:
This strategy is not unlike dualing a bishop near the end of the game to a fighter (to be able to use the infinity helm and to withstand attacks due to increased AC with armor use). Essentially your giving a magic user the ability to fight or and/or withstand physical attack. Whith this strategy chances are you have melee-meatshields (one or two in your party) to support these characters at the beginning of the game (otherwise I'd advise against this strategy). Also look at how you want to use the character - if you prefer them as mage casters with additional fighting ability then your ability focus will be on intelligence. If you want them more for their physical combat abilities with good magic casting then focus on those attributes needed for physical combat. If you want a compromise 50/50 character then utilize the attribute level-up that CT mentioned before.

Always look at those special skills that require class level for improvement and balance this with the fact that it will be 5 levels before the next level-up in magic. (Note however that the magic level-up penalty isn't as bad as it seems - it takes 3 levels to level up for a pure character vs. 5 levels for ONLY the first level-up upon becoming a hybrid. You are ONLY sacrificing at one level-up two levels, which seems to me to be more than fair for the additional magic BOTH early-on and throughout the game. Of course in addition it is only a sacrifice with respect to timing - your pure hybrid takes this penalty at the beginning.) Additionally note the penalty that CT has mentioned (nicely said CT), (I find this penalty minimal and rarely noticable). (In fact the trouble that you (Variol) are having is more than likely due to higher level monsters - not the defficancy that CT has mentioned - but this is only speculation on my part.) Also look at the spells that you will gain early on (particularly if they are resistance defense spells) and who else in your party can cast them WHEN you need them. The real balancing act here is to get those spells you need at the time you need them FOR THE PARTY (not necc. for that character). (In the past I found that I've needed them before level 12, but not anymore with the way I train my characters.) Look at the hitpoints your giving up with respect to this character and IF this character will need them - its entirely possible that there is no appreciable loss latter in the game depending on the way you develop your character. There will be the hitpoint detriment early in the game when your weak BUT you should have one-to-two meatshields in your party that can compensate (unless you develop a character for primarily meatshield activity and have Vitality for your major attribute). Finally realize that you have greater latitude for attribute point distribution early in the game to specialize your character one way or the other - (this is what I consider the real hidden bonus).

Focusing on detriments-
For instance: A Ranger's ranged critical and a to a lesser extent the Ninja's auto-penetration skills are PURELY level dependent. The latter you dual to these classes the less these special abilities will work throughout the game. This is why in the past I've suggested only going to level 8 as an alchemist and then dualing at level 9 to a ranger. The upside with this progression is that it allows 4th level spells early on AND still allows good development of critical attacks, (level 11 dualed at 12 I find unacceptable for critical attack development). Of course the other substantial detriment is that you will need your meatshield characters. Furthermore you have greater lattitude with respect to attribute increases because the Alchemist has only two minimum attributes wheras the Ranger has FIVE. This bonus is somewhat lessend in this case because the Alchemist requires 5 additional points in intelligence that the Ranger doesn't require (which may not be a detriment if you wish a magic heavy Ranger that utilizes intelligence as a primary attribute).

Upside down character-
One dualed character seems to break the rules on detriments - the Priest to Lord (Dwarf race). This character acts incredibly well as a melee-meatshield AND as a magic caster throughout the game if properly developed.

As an added note: I won't be posting what I have been writing until early August (to much editing - to little time), but this material really isn't on it so I thought I'd pop-in here.