Real Western Sword Combat

[Azimaith]

I'd really like to compare western swordsmanship with other types of sword play in different cultures. Anyone who practices another martial art dealing with sword combat fairly exclusively is encouraged to post in.

I guess I'll start.

I've often heard western swordsmanship called "crude" or "not a refined enough for the title of martial art", of course thats ridiculous but still its said. Is it because of the sheer utilitarian actions of western swordsmanship? Out of all the asian martial arts i've practiced (which is alot) I've never once had my instructor say: Okay class now kick your opponent in the groin as hard as you can, then stomp on his foot followed by a blow to the throat. Such combat is dishonorable I suppose in many peoples eyes, well I'm sure in a real fight most people would do alot of foot stomping and groin kicking, i've seen it before. Western swordsmanship is VERY frank, blunt, but at the same time their is beauty in the flashing of a fine blade cleanly cleaving the air with its characteristic high pitched woosh with deadly precision combined with the smooth movement in a broken rythm of passing forward and backward with blows. (Wow that was very poetic!) Ahem, sadly enough many refined martial arts nowadays are forgetting their purpose. Martial arts is not about looking cool or being able to say I know this school or that. Its true purpose isn't even self realization and introspection, its purpose is to teach one how to fight and survive in combat at its basest roots. All parts that were mentioned are simply fringe benefits, heh. Because its so arcane a topic western swordsmanship has survived the posers and quackery which has sadly befallen so many other forms. Sure we still have some but its relatively few. Lets take for example competition kendo, once a really vibrant martial art reduced to a shell of itself as targets became restricted and the lawyers started slapping saftey concerns over everything, now what has it become? 3 or 4 upper body targets, as if your upper body at those locations was not invulnerable like the rest of it. Completely ridiculous, Its all part of the new generation of peoples obsession with saftey and "feelings", rampant psychobabble clouding the true desire of a warrior, the desire to test ones skills in combat against an equal foe. Now of course you may love the martial arts the way they are now, with soccer moms taking tae kwon do to relieve stress and keep in shape, no mind to the sacred origins of the art, or perhaps just doing it for fun, paying a teacher who may not even have real combat experiance to keep them out of sparring and make them feel good about themselves. You can see by all the needless tournament rules that are everywhere that martial arts is falling into a bottomless abyss of legality and psychology. First off, why do they bother banning leg targets from any martial art? Its like teaching a person to read but telling them you only need half the alphabet to understand anything, the entire body needs to be used as a single effective fighting tool. Ridiculous but sadly embedded rules such as "kneeling down" teach faulty methods to students and really ruin the entire battle. Restricted movement areas also play a big part in the decay of martial combat. When will more practitioners start putting the art before the chance you might get hurt, you can't learn to fight without ever being struck.

[ 07-12-2003, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Azimaith ]

[johnny]

Psssst, your swords....erm... your sig is too big. You might wanna shrink it down a little.

[Harkoliar]

well i guess i agree that the restriction is the decay of martial arts but that is not also the reason. the reason is technology like guns will kill you faster and easier than any martial arts in the world.. but those who really do practice "true" (cant find the right term for that) martial arts will do so without restriction and will know the risk involve in gettin themselves involed. but most people wnat to feel safe about taking up martial arts that is why its more of an excersice, and sport than self defense sometimes that is why there is restrictions. but if the occasion arises, then you may or may not choose to fight.. for me its better to run away if your outmatched unless cornered. for me the reason why they have placed restriction isbecause there must be control also for the people and not let it become a royal rumble or tavern brawl if you get my meaning..

[Azred]

Part of the problem you describe is that there are far too many people who are studying martial arts, in whatever form, who do not care for its spiritual background and the emphasis on mental enhancement/meditation. It doesn't help when people like Billy Banks (although you must appreciate his entrepeneureal drive) turn martial arts into an aerobic exercise class; healty, yes, but it has nothing to do with any form of art.

Another reality of modern life is that martial arts is an extracirricular activity that most people put into their life. Gone are the days when studying martial arts to achieve personal growth was your entire life, your entire passion and daily dedication. Who has the time or the money for that kind of life?

Finally, sadly you would probably have to search for a couple of years before you could even find a teacher who still taught in a more old-fashioned method, when philosophical questioning is also part of advancement, not just sparring and forms.

There are five avenues to pursue: martial arts (traditional and true), martial sports (point-based combat), martial exercise (leg lifts! one! two! three! four!), combat training (eye gouge, ear pull, groin shot), and cinematic martial arts (really flashy, really useless, and totally unrealistic).

On to the other topic.... Real Western swordplay is far from "crude" or "unrefined", it is quite dynamic, intense, and scientifically based. Fun to watch, and even more fun when you participate! [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img]

[ 07-13-2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Azred ]

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Harkoliar: well i guess i agree that the restriction is the decay of martial arts but that is not also the reason. the reason is technology like guns will kill you faster and easier than any martial arts in the world.. but those who really do practice "true" (cant find the right term for that) martial arts will do so without restriction and will know the risk involve in gettin themselves involed. but most people wnat to feel safe about taking up martial arts that is why its more of an excersice, and sport than self defense sometimes that is why there is restrictions. but if the occasion arises, then you may or may not choose to fight.. for me its better to run away if your outmatched unless cornered. for me the reason why they have placed restriction isbecause there must be control also for the people and not let it become a royal rumble or tavern brawl if you get my meaning..

Why learn to fight if you can't use it? If you want exercise you can do many sports that are far safer than lets say, Judo. Sure it's not reasonable to expect that you will always stand and fight but often times there is no choice in the matter, lets take an example of you bieng cornered in an alley by a knife wielding thief, you can run, sure, you still take the chance at getting stabbed, talkings not gonna help, but a swift disabling strike to the head or neck, or even a disarming grapple can be used very well in real combat. Also statistically speaking, many people who commit crimes using firearms have no idea how to use them, knowing martial arts as well as something about firearms you can effectively defend yourself from less informed assailants. I don't believe in martial arts as a bragging right, or a conversation starter really, I can understand enthusiasm about your craft but still a martial art is not something light. I don't like thinking that after hundreds of years of effective combat use, a martial art will be turned into a "fun, stress releiving exercise" for soccer moms.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

If Kicking and head stomps are what you want then check out Krabi Krabong. It is the sword form of Muay Thai boxing. You have either 1 or 2 medium lengh sabres and the form is a combination of blade and pommel strikes as well as kicks,knee strikes, elbow strikes and head buts. Unlike more weapon oriented forms like Kendo or Kali, Krabi uses the whole body as a weapon. There are a lot of tecniques in it that are just used to move your opponent into place so that you can kick him or plant an elbow in his eye. Krabi also uses the whole weapon. The pommel is used to strike and block as well as for locks, throws and disarms, kind of like in Escrima. The whole tecnique is fast, brutal and effecient. There isnt any huge spiritual background because Muay Thai was originaly developed for the Thailand millitary to use in battle. It didnt sprout out some convoluted code of honor like Kendo or Akido.

[SomeGuy]

Psst, I think you shouldn't call it a sword mace. It should be called the swace! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Thoran]

I think if you're looking for the most "refined" blade based martial art, you'll find that Fencing (a Western form) is commonly accepted as "most refined" in "genteel society". It's more akin to a chess match than a groin kicking, head stomping melee.

[Elif Godson]

Going on 20 or so years in the martial arts and thankfully I have never had to use any of my training in actual combat, I have studied styles ranging from Wushu to American Kickboxing, Judo and Jui Jitsu with a splash of Kendo. Some instructors were fly by nights and some were the real deal. In todays market so to speak you will find a lot of posers and people saying that they were grand champions of this and that and unfortunatly there is no real way to prove this except through trial and error. There are few sources out there that keep track of who got what rank from whom and how or where and so the populace is at the mercy of the instructors, sometimes painfully. Some of the fee's that are charged are outragous in many cases, spending 80 to 200 $ a month for a few hours a week is ludicrus if you ask me. As for fencing I have never used a foil or rapier and by most looks of it it is in depth for sparring and martial use. In Kend, the way I learned we would use sweeps and pretty much the whole body subject to attack, even the throat I have come home with bruises there and been unable to talk from certain blows and yes I was wearing protection. Sensei would somtimes jam his shinai there and pole vault us backwards or pin us to the wall for punishment if we used poor technique and you would never see it coming. I always enjoyed myself and that is my reason for doing the martial arts I am not in top shape anymore but still enjoy myself. I think that is why soccer mom's do tai bo cardio karate as well as tae kwon do for the comraderie and as was metioned before for the security of it. Most people will go there whole lives without ever having to lift a finger in self defense and then there are those who seek it out or are put in untimely situations, martial arts is for everyone either inquisitive or die hard. Enjoy it, it is there for the taking. I think I went a bit off topic:ponder1:

[Sir Kenyth]

I've made a point of this once before. The asian martial arts portrayed in movies and television have completely skewed everyones view. A well trained European knght in full armor was a formidable opponent! Full steel plate was not anywhere near as heavy as many think. Full nobleman quality battle rattle with weapon and full shield was about 75 lbs. of distributed weight. The woven cloth and laquered wood of the samurai was not exactly feather weight either, although it was lighter. The Katana is designed to deliver broad contact slashing attacks with it's curved blade. Ideal for unarmored or lightly armored opponents. Not so good when used against a material of nearly the same hardness. In truth, the long sword wasn't all that great for this either. A broad sword, being shorter and heavier works a little better. Concentrating the force of the blow on a smaller area and not relying on razor sharpness is more effective under these circumstances. That's when you started seeing weapons like the flanged/spiked mace and the war hammer/pick start coming back into fashion. Weapons and armor are designed to overcome a certain type of threat in the most effective and economic way. That doesn't necessarily make one warrior any better than another, given their individual circumstances. But one thing we can say for sure. Steel provides a more sure barrier against steel than wood and cloth.