A Debate on Homosexuality

[Axil]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lavindathar:


To the first comment: If you know how Istaron posts, which I believe I do, he posts many things to be true, that will cause debate. He then watches them for his own personal amusement, and to be honest, I find it amusing to watch them too.

To prove this point:
Originally posted by Istaron:

oookaaay... I think doing it in the ass is disgusting

Hiram then posted:
amen, my brother. That was deep. It brought a chuckle to my frame and a tear to my eye. thanks for the laugh!

Did you see the THANX FOR THE LAUGH PART??


And secondly, you don't think any human is evil?? Have you ever been out of your front garden? How old are you? You must have seen none of the world to believe such rubbish.

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Lavindathar ]

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Oh, and that was just hilarious
Well, we all got different humour
And yes, I have been outside my front garden,and I still don't see evil people, I see people doing evil things, and that's a big difference...
And if Istaron does what you say he does, then I cannot understand how he can be allowed to stay here..
Oh and melusine, you seem a very wise woman

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Axil ]

[WOLFGIR]

quote:

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Originally posted by Istaron:

AND, about that girl. Her task isn't finished before she has also raised the child, and perhaps even got some new ones. That is how mankind does; taking care of their cubs.

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Don´t get wolves involved in this one.. They raise a kid as a complete pack, not one single woman!

By the way, it seems like we have started to say "gay" as in "homosexual" as in gay-man behaviour here.. Don´t forget that some women as well are gay, some are bisexual as well.

Not a one hit wonder or anything. Bahamut, I think I can see what you are saying, and well it really comes down to what Mel is saying, judge one person a time more or less. I myself have a slight "trouble" taking persons that have highpitched voices and so, but I don´t well care, I can´t simply be bothered by them.

Ok, I will soon add my two cents together and add a dollar!

Edit note.. geez, don´t drink and type kids.. The typos and ideas can be V E R Y far from what you mean!

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lavindathar:

And secondly, you don't think any human is evil?? Have you ever been out of your front garden? How old are you? You must have seen none of the world to believe such rubbish.

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That's just a bit heavy-handed in response, isn't it? I mean, Axil hasn't written what he means by "evil." Perhaps he separates the person per se from the acts a person commits for the sake of analysis on some level; just as it's possible for a particular religion, for example, to find a member guilty of terrible crimes, but still "redeemable." (I don't mean to attach this to Judeo-Christian views, but in English, the words have that almost unavoidable connotation.

A few examples: in gnostically influenced Christianity (which is pretty much most varieties), demons are utterly evil and unredeemable. In certain Judaic sects, the Qlipoth are sentient unbalances of, well, energy, that will ultimately be discarded from the universe. In Islam, Iblis and his followers will be defeated and destroyed. Yet members of all three religious communions can commit terrible deeds that do not, for the sake of those deeds, cast them beyond the pale. The fact that they can be recognized as needing assistance in itself speaks for a lack of quintessential evil.

Anyway, that's how I see it. How Axil sees it may be something else entirely, but if we poke him with a very large stick I don't think he'll respond, do you?

Edit: I see he has responded, but not to the criticism, while I was writing in turn. Seems we have similar views in that respect. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Hiram Sedai]

I'll take "Text that is really hard to read" for 200, Alex.

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:
I'll take "Text that is really hard to read" for 200, Alex.

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Okay, Muppetboy, is that font color any better? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[ʆë®Ñï†Ý]

Okkie, the first thing I'd like to point out is, my philosophy for life is to try and have fun, be happy, enjoy yourself. As long as you don't hurt anyone along the way *grynz* I find that this makes life a lot simpler and me less prone to introspection.

I doubt there are truely "evil" ppl in this world who want to hurt others. A lot of hurt is caused by misunderstandings or not listening carefully enough (I often mistake things that are said to me). I suppose there are a few in whom the well being of others doesn't come before their own wants...but that doesn't happen much. Another cliche but it's true, "Treat others as you would have them treat you." Most hurting of people seem to come from a desire to "protect ones own" People we feel close with, that's why there'll always be nepotism, We are all selfish to a degree.

Science... this whole "we are animals" thing is not easy to put in one box or another. True we started off as animals, but animals all have their own societies as well. If we are animals... it isn't "natural" to limit males or females to one sexual partner. Most animals have different partners to have offspring with whereas we have created a "marriage" in which once you commit you cannot have another partner. This is us being "possesive" a characteristic that I have noticed only food or shelter brings out in animals.

I have to say, if a lot of people suddenly turned gay in China that might help the exploding population. The government would not have to create laws limiting the number of children couples can have. People still tend to be rather short sited. For the farmer that is struggling to stay alive, having children seems to be a good way to ensure being looked after in old age. What he doesn't see is that the more ppl there are in china, the harder it will be for his children to find work thus creating a vicious circle where people only get poorer and poorer. Illustrating my point of people being selfish and looking out for "them and theirs".

What humans don't seem to like or plan for, is CHANGE. People change, our environment changes, our likes, dislike etc change. So we usually stay in our "little pond* never seeing beyond it. Maybe being against homosexuals is just another example of the human tendency to mistrust anything that is different. Not what we're used to.

It has been scientifically proven that people get born with or develop different types of brains. the "female" brain and the "male brain". There are of course as with everything varying degrees of this maleness and femaleness. So who is to say that a man does not end up with an extremely female brain which is stonger than the influences of conventional society or vice versa? Sometimes if the maleness or femaleness is not extreme maybe it is smothered by convention and so people lead a heterosexual if somewhat dissatisfied life...

Moral issues are extremely hard to decide on one or the other. Especially on things like.. "is it acceptable for there to be Mistresses and slaves?" If the slave consents. And is sodomy acceptable? What about having sex out of wedlock. Is there a difference between having sex and making love? Does borrowing without asking your good friend's permission amount to stealing? even if it was only borrowed for a short while?

I won't bore you guys with anymore of my babbling *wink* so I'll leave it at that.. though I could go on for hours ~beams~ as always.

The only time gay guys annoy me is when that guy happens to be the one I fancy ~poutz~ *L* But that's just me being selfish ~chuckles~

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: ʆë®Ñï†Ý ]

[Tobbin]

quote:

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Originally posted by 250:
a union by two people's free choice, I dont see anything wrong with that.

and I dont see anything wrong with homosexuality except I am having hard time comprehending it. I will understand it in time, I think.

look, what if your sister turns out to be a lesbian? what if it is your MOTHER? it is common for a person to discover his/her true sexuality late. there are woman who didnt know she is lesibian until 30 or later than that, it is possible that she bears a child before hand. what if that child turns out to be you? will you go against your family?

and who is to say homosexual is a sin?

homosexual people are people too, you know? just what they want in life is a little different from you dont make them unacceptable.

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I was going to bring up this point too. I was married to a woman that realized she was trying to live her life for others and then decided she couldn't do that for the rest of her life. She had always had feelings for women, but just didn't feel she could act upon it. Because of this, there was a lot of anger and hatred within her that she couldn't deal with. Eventually, she started to let it out in sarcasm. Some of the feelings she had were back from when she was younger, and not being able to deal with the feelings caused her personality to split. She has multiple personalities now. Ok, moving on to the other point about children being raised by homosexual parents. Well, my ex-wife eventually did end up with another lady that already had a son. This woman considered herself bi-sexual. So, here you have a 2 year old boy being raised by 2 women. There was love there between the 2 women and the boy and each other. What made this a bad position was society. See, whenever the boy would talk about his two mommies, other kids (and sometimes adults) would start laughing and snickering and calling him names. This eventually traumatized him to some extent. It caused him to have a lot of anger of his own to deal with. This boy was the sweetest little kid you could ever meet, but he was consumed with feelings of inadequacy. He's 10 now and he is getting into a lot of trouble at school. See, he stopped letting all those feelings build up. Now, he let's them out on whoever it is that angers him. I feel really bad for him. There's a lot more to this story than I'm putting here, but I wanted to let you know my reasons for saying I think it is a bad idea for homosexual parents to raise children. It's good that they can provide a loving home, but they need to be able to provide a loving COMMUNITY too. Otherwise, the love on one side will be cancelled out by the HATRED from the other side.

[Bahamut]

quote:

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Originally posted by WOLFGIR:



Not a one hit wonder or anything. Bahamut, I think I can see what you are saying, and well it really comes down to what Mel is saying, judge one person a time more or less. I myself have a slight "trouble" taking persons that have highpitched voices and so, but I don´t well care, I can´t simply be bothered by them.

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Well, you are correct also, what i don't like is that some here just keep on trying in vain... well gay people who want to be women to some extent only, and that is what i just don't like about some people. if i am asked, i would simply answer i have nothing about them. and this would be just a side comment.

well, i myself, maybe even as of the moment conditioning myself for the future, as i still see i am not ready to accept everyone in our society as of now. the mere fact that we are debating on this, and not just saying we should accept them, and why and let's spread love and all that, hints that we are still not ready, as some people still doesn't want the fact that they really exist.

[Tobbin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bahamut:


Well, you are correct also, what i don't like is that some here just keep on trying in vain... well gay people who want to be women to some extent only, and that is what i just don't like about some people. if i am asked, i would simply answer i have nothing about them. and this would be just a side comment.

well, i myself, maybe even as of the moment conditioning myself for the future, as i still see i am not ready to accept everyone in our society as of now. the mere fact that we are debating on this, and not just saying we should accept them, and why and let's spread love and all that, hints that we are still not ready, as some people still doesn't want the fact that they really exist.

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Yes, that is what I was trying to say. As a people, we are not yet ready. We are getting there. It takes awhile before a society changes. Whether we will get there in my lifetime or not, I can't say. I think eventually that we will find an equilibrium with each other. In many ways, it seems the only way that we as a people can survive.

[Hiram Sedai]

quote:

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Originally posted by fable:


That's just a bit heavy-handed in response, isn't it? I mean, Axil hasn't written what he means by "evil." Perhaps he separates the person per se from the acts a person commits for the sake of analysis on some level; just as it's possible for a particular religion, for example, to find a member guilty of terrible crimes, but still "redeemable." (I don't mean to attach this to Judeo-Christian views, but in English, the words have that almost unavoidable connotation.

A few examples: in gnostically influenced Christianity (which is pretty much most varieties), demons are utterly evil and unredeemable. In certain Judaic sects, the Qlipoth are sentient unbalances of, well, energy, that will ultimately be discarded from the universe. In Islam, Iblis and his followers will be defeated and destroyed. Yet members of all three religious communions can commit terrible deeds that do not, for the sake of those deeds, cast them beyond the pale. The fact that they can be recognized as needing assistance in itself speaks for a lack of quintessential evil.

Anyway, that's how I see it. How Axil sees it may be something else entirely, but if we poke him with a very large stick I don't think he'll respond, do you?

Edit: I see he has responded, but not to the criticism, while I was writing in turn. Seems we have similar views in that respect. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

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I struggled to stay out of this but...here I go:

Now that I can read your text, I can reply. Thank you for changing colors. Your first question about if a person is "redeemable" would involve either the Calvininist viewpoint (Total depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints - TULIP) or the Armeniest viewpoint (everyone can choose regardless of predestination and for-ordination). So, for the Calvinist, if that person was meant to be that way then he will stay that way. The opposite would be true for the Armeniest. I won't delve into the Gnostic movement and the influence it had on Christianity.

Regarding your definition of a person by what he or she does, that is quite difficult. I have almost always defined myself by what I do, but that is a concept of perception. Overall, in my own microcosm, I see the others around me do the same. There is still the "them and us" mentality regarding homosexuality. They are an unwelcome portion of our society but we feel unable to do anything about it. More often than not, I feel pity coupled with disdain. I've never claimed to be open minded or accepting of others.

Fable, I don't believe that Axil was being "heavy handed". There are myriad personalities in this forum of ours and he was quite honest in how he felt. Many describe their perceptions in black and white terms.

I agree with your points that various acts of evil have been committed in the name of religion. King Richard the Lion Hearted springs to mind. The Crusades were much more for money than for expunging the heretics from Jerusalem.

You are welcome to poke me with the sharp stick in that it is not an inuendo having to do with rampant homosexual phallic infractions.

Edited to end your infernal font color and to state my disclaimer. I am now 2.5 sheets to the wind due to inebriation.

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Hiram Sedai ]