The OFFICIAL Ironworks Football World Cup Thread--Part IV

[Staralfur]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Staralfur, that is hysterical! Even though the blue font is hurting my eyes.

I give them 10/10 for originality, but about 4/10 for plausibility. Some people just have too much time on their hands...

PS;Changed the colour now; I almost blinded myself after posting it.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Egad! The dull red font is murder on my eyes!

Why not just use white font? Or heck... just stick to the default colour.

[ 06-22-2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[johnny]

You could look at this Korea thing from a different point of view. I personally don't think they're all that good. Against Spain they simply played very poor, but Spain played even worse. So did Italy, it's obvious they were the better team exept arrogance brought them down. I say Korea is mostly lucky so far. And about the referees, most of them ARE terrible, where the hell does fifa come up with these nitwits ? I mean, a ref from Jamaica at this level ? Come on, give me a break, where did he gain experience ? At saturdaymorning matches between Trenchtown United and Rastafari Hotspurs ? PLEASE !!!! Next time use professional refs please, they're out there, why not use them. What difference does it make that there are 5 or 6 refs from one country, it couldn't get any worse than this.

[Grojlach]

johnny, what are you implying? You really want them to use Wegereef or something? I'd rather have that guy from Jamaica instead. [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]

[Lanthir]

Originally posted by norompanlasolas:

, i think it would be bad for football if south korea beat brazil. thats because it would make the world cup some sort of a joke, where the local team (no matter how bad they are) can win the thing.
.[/QB][/QUOTE]

hmm I do not think it would bea joke if SK won it would mean they were the better team in the cup. They have not played bad at all. the one and only game they did nto win was to the USA. What it really seams is that teams like Spain, italy and company do not want to admit that teasm for other parts of the world can play football as well as if not better than they can. You do not see the US screaming about the bad call in their game with Germany. In fact the reaction from the team is that 1) thats football and no one is perfect and 2) We had our chances to score and did not. On the other side You have Italy and Spain screaming about things being unfair. Perhaps we should just say that Spain and Italy are so great that only they should play in the cup because the rest of the teams are just not as god like as those two.

[ 06-22-2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Lanthir ]

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by johnny: And about the referees, most of them ARE terrible, where the hell does fifa come up with these nitwits ? I mean, a ref from Jamaica at this level ? Come on, give me a break, where did he gain experience ? At saturdaymorning matches between Trenchtown United and Rastafari Hotspurs ? PLEASE !!!! Next time use professional refs please, they're out there, why not use them. What difference does it make that there are 5 or 6 refs from one country, it couldn't get any worse than this.

Let's expand on this point and review some of the referees at the centre of the "refereeing storm", so to speak.

I have not put ALL the referees' experience down otherwise there would be far too much information.

Italy vs. Croatia - two contentious offside decisions by one of the assistant referees leading to two disallowed goals, one for Vieri and another for Inzaghi.

Referee in charge: Graham Poll, England. Key experience: refereed in the European Championships (France vs. Czech Republic) and also the 2000 FA Cup final.

Assistant linesman who made the offside decisions vs. Italy: Jens Larsen from Denmark.

Italy vs. Mexico - 2 disallowed goals for Vieri

Referee in charge: Carlos Simon, Brazil. Key experience: Olympic Finals 2000, Copa America 2001.

Brazil vs. England - harsh redcard for Ronaldinho when replays showed he stepped on Danny Mills' foot and Mills went down as if hit by an axe (similar to Rivaldo vs. Turkey).

Referee in charge: Felipe Ramos, Mexico. Key experience: refereed the Olympic men's soccer final in 2000.

South Korea vs. Spain - Spanish complaints of poor refereeing

Referee in charge: Gamal Ghandour, Egypt. Key experience: refereed in 4 World Cup games in 1998, including Brazil-Denmark (which was a great game), and Brazil-Scotland. Also refereed Spain-Norway in Euro 2000, and refereed African Nations Cups in 2000 and 2002.

South Korea vs. Italy - Totti decision, Tommasi offside decision, Ahn penalty

Referee in charge: Byron Moreno, Ecuador. Key experience: 1999 Copa America, 2002 CONMEBOL qualifiers.

South Korea vs. Portugal - Portugal had Joao Pinto and Beto sent off

Referee in charge: Angel Sanchez, Argentina. Key experience: 2002 CONMEBOL qualifiers, 2001 Copa America. This was the referee that Joao Pinto "punched".

USA vs. Mexico - handball against USA went unpunished (just like Diego Maradona)

Referee in charge: Vitor Pereia, Portugal. Key experience: 4 1998 World Cup games in France, 3 Euro 2000 games.

USA v. Germany - handball vs. Germany which would have otherwise led to goal from USA

Referee in charge: Hugh Dallas, Scotland. Key experience: 5 1998 World Cup games (including the Italy-France semifinal), 2 Euro 2000 games.

Let's start with Italy blaming conspiracy. Someone said before (I think it was norom) that FIFA can select influential referees:

im not saying there is a conspiracy by fifa, but it can come very close to selecting influentiable referees, and even ones that wouldnt mind taking bribes (yes, it can happen, even in the WC).

That would mean that Carlos Simon (Brazil), Graham Poll (England), Jens Larssen (Denmark), and Byron Moreno (Ecuador) would all be bribable? I think we need to be very careful about casting aspersions on people - innocent till proven guilty and all that. There's a big difference between being questioning someone's PERFORMANCE and questioning someone's INTEGRITY.

Taking the Spain-Korea game - Ghandour from Egypt is one of the most experienced referees in the WORLD. He has refereed in the 98 WC, in Euro 2000 and also in the African Nations Cup in 2000 and 2002. He is not someone who got experience from "Rastafari Hotspurs" vs "Trenchtown United". Jens Larsen from Denmark is a very experienced referee as well.

What do I read from the above? Despite having lots of experience, referees can and will make mistakes. The refereeing standard in this Cup has been poor (although if more big European and South American nations had remained (eg. if the bad decisions had gone against little teams like Senegal, Turkey, USA, etc) I doubt if there would be half as much outcry about it).

Because football is a low-scoring game, one mistake can turn a game, unlike in basketball or rugby. Maybe it is time to bring in video referees to adjudicate on things like offside decisions, shirtpulling, simulation and handball.

What else do I read from the above? The countries that are squealing (Spain, Italy, Portugal, Argentina) are countries that had very high expectations on them to succeed. Their teams were rated very highly and their public expected them to just turn up and they would win. They didn't and now they are looking for excuses. It's called being a SOOK!! [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

Here's a novel idea: could it be possible that these teams were simply not good enough on the day and were beaten by teams that were inferior in quality but played better and more POSITIVELY on the day?

[ 06-23-2002, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Lanesra]

Originally posted by Memnoch: quote: Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: Well - if South Korea keep having the referees so obviously on their side - then anything can happen. First against Italy - now against Spain - perhaps Germany will have a few goals disallowed in the semi-final.

"Gimme an S! Gimme an O! Gimme a U! Gimme an R! Gimme a G! Gimme an R! Gimme an A! Gimme a P! Gimme an-"



Sorry mate, I just find all this bleating from Europe about referees to be hilarious. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Yep makes me glad we're not part of Europe [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-23-2002, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Lanesra ]

[johnny]

Hey, i'm not saying professional refs can't make mistakes, they're only human, but chances are less they totally screw the game up. if you really don't want anything to go wrong they should do it like in the NFL, where the refs have contact with someone high up in the stadium, who follows the game on a screen. If they would have worked that way, some of the matches would have had totally different outcomes, i'm sure of that. but then again, it's also the charm of football, that sometimes games are decided by poor arbitrage.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Grojlach: johnny, what are you implying? You really want them to use Wegereef or something? I'd rather have that guy from Jamaica instead. [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]

You don't really follow football that much do you ? Couse if you do you should know that Wegereef is one of Hollands top refs who usually doesn't make capital mistakes. Players are not stupid either and are constantly trying to trick the refs and he got tricked twice his last match. That's why they don't give him another match and is being send home. These kind of things seldom happen to him though.

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Memnoch: quote: Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: Well - if South Korea keep having the referees so obviously on their side - then anything can happen. First against Italy - now against Spain - perhaps Germany will have a few goals disallowed in the semi-final.

"Gimme an S! Gimme an O! Gimme a U! Gimme an R! Gimme a G! Gimme an R! Gimme an A! Gimme a P! Gimme an-"



Sorry mate, I just find all this bleating from Europe about referees to be hilarious. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Actually I wasn't 'bleating' - I just forgot the ' '-smiley
- but Memnoch - you must admit that South Korea have benefitted from some dubious descisions from the referees. Besides - Germany will beat SK - and win the WC.

And I'm not a sour grape - I demand a retraction or we'll meet on the dualing-field tomorro morning