Religion

[fable]

Yorick, your quotes above do not address the claim made in the latter half of your statement:

Islamics do not accept the Trinity either. Jesus is their greatest prophet.

The Qu'ran neither says, nor implies this. It states, quite unequivocably:

"Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but he is the Messenger of God and the last of the prophets." (Qu'ran 33:40)

Islam is built upon his teachings. Jesus and Moses are regarded as previous prophets, according to Islam, but the final and ultimate revelation of Allah was entrusted to the greatest prophet of them all, Mohammed (so the Muslims teach). He is the prophet they follow, and is the one they refer to as "The Prophet." No Muslim regards Jesus as The Prophet. Don't take my word for it; speak with any Muslim, and ask them who The Prophet is.

Consider one encyclopediac source on the subject of Islam:

"Founded by Mohammed (c. 570-632 CE), who is considered to be the last and greatest of the prophets in a tradition which included Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Islam rapidly spread from its roots in Western Arabia to North Africa and Persia and by the late eighth century CE had progressed as far as Southern France. Principal doctrinal elements: belief in one God, Allah, identified with the Old Testament YHWH, with Mohammed as the seal of the prophets (khatm al-anbiya)..."

Another source refers to Mohammed as follows:

"Prophet Muhammad was born in Makkah, present-day Saudi Arabia in 570 C.E. He is the model for humanity of all walks of life to follow until the Last Hour. God sent him as a mercy for the worlds. Prophet Muhammad ( an Arab and a descendant of Abraham) received divine revelations (The Holy Quran) over a period of 23 years in the seventh century of the Christian Era. Muslims believe that he is the last Messenger sent by God for the guidance of mankind until the Day of Judgment."

To quote a popular study on Islam:

"Islam is not a new religion. It is, in essence, the same message and guidance which Allah revealed to all His Prophets, like Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, David, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (‘alaihimus salaam). But the message which was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) is Islam in its comprehensive, complete and final form."

I was attempting to correct in earlier posts your errors of fact regarding a variety of religions (Buddhists worship gods in their temples; Hindus cannot worship Jesus as part of the Hindu pantheon; etc). But if you will maintain that Jesus is the greatest prophet of Islam in the face of the fact that Islam is founded on the teachings and revelations of Mohammed, what hope is there for discussion between us? Please, study good, mainstream books on these subjects. Seek out good, mainstream groups and individuals who represent appropriate Hindu, Islamic and Buddhist teachings, for a start. I am not suggesting you alter your own beliefs, but a sincere and open heart in the face of the beliefs of others will at least come away with an honest understanding of their own belief systems, and of the truths that are shared beyond religious differences.

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Yorick]

Fable I am well aware of Mohammads contribution to Islam, and that to be be a Muslim, is to live in near replication of the life Mohammad and his disciples led. The "last" prophet is not necessarily the "greatest" however. The "last" is the word of the Qur'ans description, the "greatest" is a western encyclopedias analysis. Not exactly the horses mouth.

How are we defining 'greatest'? The person with the most impact? or the purest, holiest individual?

One could make the comparison that Mohammad is to Islam, what Paul is to Protestantism. A provider of illumination, guidance and revelation. Clearly to non-muslims especially from Judeo-Christian cultures, Mohammad has had the most impact. It's interesting to me that the common reverence for Jesus is washed over by westerners. Did not the Pope find enough common ground to pray with an Iman in Syria recently? Does not the unjustified deification of ones greatest prophet (and usurping his name) not seem a justification for hatred on the Islamics part?

I use the word 'greatest', because that was the word used by Muslims when speaking of Jesus. I would assume Mohammad has had the most impact, so would assume it to be refering to Jesus' purity or the like. However, perhaps I don't know enough of Jesus impact in Islam to make a correct assessment. Thus, in covering, I use the word Muslims have used to me, and seek to find common ground with them when with them.

Regarding my "errors" whether deities, gods or Bodhissatvas, the issue is that there were beings worshipped. A point you missed in seeking to "correct" terminology. Worship of any god, deity or bodhissatva is futile if correctly following Buddhas last line of thought. (As opposed to some of his earlier thinking) That is the point I was making. Splitting a hair over whether it is one of the three seems unecessarily hostile Fable, as the three terms are relatively similar.

Secondly, I stand by what I said about Jesus and the pantheon. 'Jesus' is just a name. Many Spanish speakers are named Jesus. Does that mean they are the messiah? Y'shua - The Creator God who became man and died so humans could have eternal life - is completely outside a Hindu PANTHEistic PANTHEon (notice the two words), and provides Grace that removes the law of Karma. There is a reason why Hindus disown those who embrace Christ. The two ideologies are in total conflict.

This was the point I was making, which is why I used the example of close friends who have left both Hinduism and Buddhism. The change in the individuals, their very lives, speak more to me than any western conjecture on "similarities".

Regarding my "open mind". Mind your own business. I have indeed, as I said read widely on the subject, and, as I have a wide circle of friends over a number of continents, aquainted myself with differing beliefs. I am currently reading "The power of NOW" by Eckhart Tolle for example. Merely because I have conviction of my own beliefs, or present information that conflicts with your own preconceptions, in no way indicates a lack of open mindedness of research. To the contrary, the more differing ideologies I encounter the more resolute I become. Tolles assertions on 'the Christ' drive me futher toward my God, not into myself.

I'd suggest it is YOU that needs to open your mind.

There is an Australian joke about three businessmen on a train from Sydney to Melbourne. As the cross the border they see a black sheep.
The first man says
"I guess Victorian Sheep are all black guys..."
The second says
"You idiot, all you can see is that at least one sheep is black"
The third cracks
"Naaa. All you can see is that at least one sheep in Victoria is black on one side."

I am writing from my experiences. Proclaim me an ignorant zealot if you wish. Your loss. I have read your posts and accepted this is your experience. I too had read the encyclopedia and "mainstream books" so know where you're coming from. The people I have spoken about changed my opinions.

Take it or leave it Fable.

Goodnight.

[Yorick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Epona:


Hi Hugh, I'm great thanks! Haven't you frozen yet?
BTW your posts are *way* too long and complex for my poor brain to comprehend this early in the week [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] , how are you so alert on a Monday morning?

---

What? You mean it's not very, very, very, late on a sunday night? Joking, joking.

Actually I have frozen. Today was just ludicrous. Hopefully my blood will thicken soon.

[fable]

Regarding my "open mind". Mind your own business.

Yorick, I think this, along with your errors of fact regarding religions that are not your own, speak all too eloquently of your desire to ignore the realities of other religions, and to snap at anybody who dares refer to both facts throughout history, and facts on the ground as they are, now. Let's just call our "discussion" quits, then, okay? Best of luck in the future. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Yorick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neb:


Just because someone tells you to be nice to everyone because it'll gain him something doesn't mean that it's a bad idea.

Like that, these teachings can still be wise words to follow.

---

You've missed the point. Teachings are a means, not an end. You learn a language so you can communicate. You learn how to drive so you can...drive. Getting English lessons to speak Mandarin better would be ludicrous. Being taught how to cook so you can drive is equally bizzare.

[fable]

I'd like to open a new theme here in the Religion topic for all: what are the requirements, in your opinion, for a "religion?" Not a religious movement, though we could discuss that as well, with the understanding that it's not necessarily the same; but a religion.

Any takers?

[Yorick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fable:
Regarding my "open mind". Mind your own business.

Yorick, I think this, along with your errors of fact regarding religions that are not your own, speak all too eloquently of your desire to ignore the realities of other religions, and to snap at anybody who dares refer to both facts throughout history, and facts on the ground. Let's just call our "discussion" quits, then, okay? Best of luck in the future. [img]smile.gif[/img]

---

Fable, you got personal. Personal and presumptious. This is what I was refering to. Don't presume to know anything about me merely because we're talking on the internet.

Debate the topic.

Thanks for your best wishes though. You too Fable. [img]smile.gif[/img] Best of luck in the future. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Sazerac]

Yorick and Fable, with all due respect, your responses to each other have been peremptory and biting, and rather personally pointed. Now, from what I've seen of the two of you, both of you have a vast knowledge in this area and would seem to have a lot to learn and share from each other if you were not nipping at each other so. I know that both of you feel very passionately about your beliefs, but both of you do need to back off of this, as it has now crossed the line, IMO, to personal attacks.

It's fine to challenge one another's statements. It's another thing altogether to question each others' "open minds", tell others to "mind their own business", or assume that someone is calling you "ignorant" when nothing of the kind has been said and react upon it.

Both of you have suggested that you drop this particular line, and yet both of you continue to come back to the "ring" and pick up the gloves. I am asserting to both of you to indeed "drop the issue", or I will drop it for you by locking this thread. I would hate to do that, since the discussion had been proceeding along very respectful lines prior to this bantering between the two of you.

One more mantra I'd like to add to Memnoch's thread: I have a set of beliefs and opinions. I am NOT my beliefs and opinions.

-Sazerac

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Sazerac ]

[Yorick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sazerac:

It's fine to challenge one another's statements. It's another thing altogether to question each others' "open minds", tell others to "mind their own business", or assume that someone is calling you "ignorant" when nothing of the kind has been said and react upon it.

---

You didn't like my wordplay I take it? Two 'minds' in a row used in different contexts? Oh well.

With all respect Saz, in my defense these:
"Yorick, with respect, I can see that you don't want to discuss the issues you've brought up: you just want me to accept your views"

"....correcting mistaken impressions spread by zealots of other religions, who haven't taken the time to research matters carefully...."

were part of what I was reacting against.

In any case, we've agreed to disagree, haven't we Fable? There's no hard feelings on my part.

Point taken though. Have a good night.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drake:


Garnet FalconDance please it looks to me like you are getting angry, if so than please can't it end?

"*All* pagans are ***NOT*** Wiccans" now as I said befor I understood you the first time you said this.

...I'm not saying he or you are right, I just wanted to know where both of you where coming from is all.

BTW I asked him too why he was saying what he was saying and instead of answering me he just got angry and started ranting about how stupid people are. sux I block him so now I will never know.

---

Drake,

I'd like to answer your question (if I can) as an outside observer who does not practice the Wiccan religion.

Your friend misinterpreted and misused the term "wicca". I believe his reaction confirms that. When you questioned him about it, he apparantly just started ranting.

Garnet was correct in her analogy to Christian religion (my personal favorite - I am a Baptist). ALL Baptist are Christians, but not all Christians are Baptist. Methodists, Protestants, Lutherans are all branches of Christianity. And I can assure you that NONE of them feel they worship God in a "wiccan" manner.

Paganism is the same. Wiccan is one particular example of a pagan religion, but there are several others.

I understand that you want to give equal weight to both sides, so that you can choose for yourself who is correct. But, for future reference, consider the expertise and knowledge of your sources. Garnet is an active practitioner of the Wiccan religion. I mean no disrespect to your friend, but is he also a Wiccan, or was he repeating something he read on the internet?