Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
But the thing that really stuck in my mind is the fact that, while these individuals were part of a group who actively sought the harm and/or annihilation of any American possible, they have better medical care than my own children who are many generation native born Americans! Doctors and nurses on compound 24/7, free of charge. I don't give a rat's ass at this point about the Geneva Convention, rather we officially declared war against the country or against the governing body or even if their beard were shaved! These individuals are *NOT* being mistreated!!! Their freedom has been curtailed, yes. However, they now have their very own US Muslim chaplain to lead them in prayer and better living conditions they may have ever known in some cases---***all at the expense of ME and YOU and the survivors of the New York and Pennsylvania tragedies.***

While I am not a warmonger and I do uphold the laws if at all possible, I find that in this particular circumstance I cannot be objective.

IMO (never humble), let them rot in a ditch somewhere rather than keep them in fine style.

The media needs to back off and shut up.

And the world community--if you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Put up or shut up would be my advice to you.

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First of all
Foprum Policy
"I might not agree with what you have to say
But I'll Defend the Gut right to say it"

So nobody has to put up and shut up

Nationalism...
Nationalism is the thriving power behind War and Suffering
And at the very moment
It is the USA who displays a dangerous amount of Nationalism
You say "I don't give a rat's ass at this point about the Geneva Convention" and that is just what is wrong with the USA lately
You don;t give a rats ass about Any convention
be it the Kyoto, Geneva or the anti-rocket shield convention
I think it would be best if you would be put in isolation for a while to show you You Do need the World and You need to respect the world

Alright
About there condition being better then they ever had
I doubt it
But if that is true
What kinda sick world do we live in
Where we let people suffer from hunger
Suffering leads to Anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to suffering
This cirkel must be broken
You always talk about what kinda great people you are
and you give so much to cherity
No wonder you do that
Since you make more money then anyone else in this world
We in Holland pay 40% taxes
this is to support our nation
And the people who cannot work
If i look at the USA there are A lot of people so poor they can;t even buy food
Is this such a great country?

I can;t find the words to express the anger I feel anytime you seem to think you are so great
It's Sad

Rikard
aka
Chao Kang Tai

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:


Ummm...Hello??? Is this thing on? *waves hand in front of Tarox's face* Anyone awake? Hi there. I'm Mister Reality Check. I'll be informing you of this little thing called "What's really going on."

*AHEM*

In what way does 3 square meals a day, a soft bed, clean sheets, clean clothes, 2 nice fluffy towels(one of which makes a handy prayer rug), 24/7 medical care, and freedom to exercise their religious beliefs constitute 'mistreatment'? And, that being the case...how does that possibly equate to NATO/US soldiers being tortured and killed when captured by enemy governments? I mean...perhaps I'm the one who's confused here, but somehow, I doubt it.

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This is Basic Human Rights
We ALL deserve this
No Matter what someone did
You cannot stop treating them like human beings
Human beings do not get born Evil
They get turned evil
By people who don't care about them
By Hunger and Hatred
Think about it before you judge
Always Look to yourself first
to try and find the answers

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:


Hiya Ronn...Maybe I'm too cynical, but, having read a great many of Barry's posts, I have absolutely no problem believing that Barry will automatically take the view that puts the US in the worst light.

You can say what you want to Barry, but that has been your Modus Operandi as long as I have been reading your posts. It gets very very tired.

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Sorry you feel that way Nachtrafe. I can understand that with a sig like yours you feel the right to claim complete impartiality. I wanted to have a nice discussion in this thread but instead for the few posts I have actually made in between the waves of nationalism I have been insulted and villified. At least Ronn had the decency to back up his posts against me and word them in a way that came across as criticsm, not attack. If my opinion is against the current US policy then is it not valid? I have already given my reasons, and you have given yours. We disagree, as usual, what exactly is the problem? You think I hate America? Why would I still be on this board if I thought that. I enjoy a good discussion with some members of this board, but if you would rather have a discussion with only one point of view then fine. Don't blame me when it gets boring or unproductive.

BTW Donut, thanks! It was getting very lonely in here... and you explained it much better than I did.

[Melusine]

Barry, just wanted to let you know I don't agree with a lot of your posts and agree with a lot of them, but regardless of what I think of your opinions, I certainly don't think you're "anti-american". You may object to a lot of decisions the American government makes, but I believe you do so simply because you happen to have a different opinion, not because it's an automatical knee-jerk reaction based on the principle that you disagree with ANYTHING they do.

[Nachtrafe]

quote:

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Originally posted by Donut:


When the prisoners first arrived they were chained, manacled, blindfolded and had their ears and mouths covered. They were also forced to kneel in an extremely uncomfortable position. These are extremely dangerous men and I can understand the military not wanting to take any chances with them. What I can't understand is why these pictures were released (actually I can ). Wouldn't it have been better to wait until they were ensconced in the luxury that you have described?

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Actually, that's generally how dangerous crimials are handled the (civilized) world over. As my (crotchety old) grandpa used to say..."You dont give a mad dog a chance to bite ya."

As to the pictures...those were released by the left-wing candy-asses in the American media to drum up sympathy for the 'poor mistreated/misunderstood/abused Al-Queda 'freedom fighters'.

quote:

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One other thought, if the situation were reversed and you were presented with pictures of 158 US servicemen being treated this way just how angry would you be? How much would you want your country to hit back at the captors? How much would you want to see them suffer?

Now take the anger that you feel, multiply it by a 100 and put it into the head of a 16 year old muslim who already feels he has an axe to grind.

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I'm quite sure that the detainees fellow radical/homocidal/extremist/psychopathic Al-Quedans are quite pissed. As for the average Afghani citizen...somehow, considering their reaction to current events, I imagine that they're pretty happy about it.

And really...As I said above, that is how dangerous prisoners are treated the (civilized) world over. If that is the worst that American prisoners had to deal with, before they were whisked off to their holding cells where they were being attended to by medical personel, given plenty of food, clean clothes etc, I dont imagine it would be a problem. The problem arises when the Americans are given the treatment you stated above, which is then followed by torture, abuse, starvation, and generally, painful death. So really Donut, I have not a single iota of sympathy for the Al-Queda in Gitmo. Personally, I think they should just be tortured, interrogated and then shot. But then...I've been called a barbarian on occasion.

quote:

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Has there been any talk about what will happen to these men once they have been found guilty by the military tribunal? I would imagine that some will be executed. If they are, will we be allowed to watch? Of the others, will the US lock them up for life? If they are released at some time they are almost certain to return to their old ways, surely that can't be allowed?

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Hopefully most of them will be executed. And, given the option, I hope they broadcast it on all networks. These bastards are some of the worst of the lot. Guys right under Mullah Omar and Osama. Al-Queda officers that helped plan terrorist attacks around the world, including the USS Cole, the first WTC attack, the US Embassies, and Sept 11th. These people are scum, and they need to be eliminated ASAP.

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

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Originally posted by Donut:


When the prisoners first arrived they were chained, manacled, blindfolded and had their ears and mouths covered. They were also forced to kneel in an extremely uncomfortable position. These are extremely dangerous men and I can understand the military not wanting to take any chances with them. What I can't understand is why these pictures were released (actually I can ). Wouldn't it have been better to wait until they were ensconced in the luxury that you have described?

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Actually, Donut, it is my understanding that 1) these were security measures taken to lessen risk from a proven very dangerous terrorist group who don't exactly use the established means of making nice-nice at 'war'; 2) Americans do *not* hold the monopoly on this manner of subduing a severe security threat and 3) this *is* a long established manner of lessening said risk. In fact, not only in the US, but elsewhere in the world, this (manacled, blindfolded in military/sensitive situations, and otherwise rendered immobile) is used to detain prisoners on a daily basis, even with 'regular' high-risk criminals such as rapists, murderers, and those guilty of armed assault (among other crimes, I'm sure). I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but I can understand *every* conotation of the process and support it.

And for the record, I was not singling out you in my previous post. If you recall, I said the *world*, but if you believe this was meant for you alone, then Nothing I further say will matter. My point, if you care to hear it, was that several countries have expressed upset over the 'inhumane' treatment of these prisoners, yet none of these countries have either bothered to inspect the facilities on their own or offered any aid, military, financial or any other, which might improve the conditions.

Now obviously this has been turned and twisted to prove how awful and harsh the Americans truly are. ::rolls eyes:: (And I recognize the factoid that the US was the one who put some of these individuals on the block to start with--to fight those who were oppressing them--ironic, ain't it?) BUT the *Americans* are the ones who got these people off the world stage at long last and now *your* children and family are safe from at least a hundred odd terrorists!

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Garnet FalconDance ]

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:

BUT the *Americans* are the ones who got these people off the world stage at long last and now *your* children and family are safe from at least a hundred odd terrorists!

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To be honest I don't think they were much of a threat to "us" (how come everybody here thinks in terms of them and us? US vs the world? I don't) - it is obvious that these terrorists target America specifically. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it isn't "our" problem as long as we're safe from danger, I just wanted to point out the above. Guess it rubs me in the wrong way when Americans point out how they protect us all - kinda like "if we hadn't been around you'd all be speaking German by now (*yawn*)", I mean, do you do it because you care or because you like to brag about it? We have a saying in Holland: Good wine needs no laurels.

[Nachtrafe]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
[QB]
Sorry you feel that way Nachtrafe. I can understand that with a sig like yours you feel the right to claim complete impartiality.
[/b]

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Ooohhhh...Sarcasm. Nicely played. As per the norm, it tries to divert my point, but nicely played nonetheless.

I have absolutely no problem(obviously) proclaiming my pride in my country, and I make no claims to impartiality. Neither can you. Every statement you have made regarding the current world situation is designed to portray the US in the worst possible light.

quote:

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I wanted to have a nice discussion in this thread but instead for the few posts I have actually made in between the waves of nationalism I have been insulted and villified.

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Not by me. I simply stated my opinion, then backed it up by citing past statements you have made. Perhaps my dictionary is a bit rusty, but that's hardly vilification.

You seem to make the claim of being 'picked on' all the time. Why? Because you make insulting statements that are responded to strongly? Dont couch your arguements in such offensive terms and perhaps you wont get responded to quite so harshly.

quote:

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At least Ronn had the decency to back up his posts against me and word them in a way that came across as criticsm, not attack. If my opinion is against the current US policy then is it not valid? I have already given my reasons, and you have given yours. We disagree, as usual, what exactly is the problem? You think I hate America?

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Ummm...again...perhaps my dictionary is rusty, but when did I attack you. I made a statement of fact. I can go back to posts of yours on many many threads, and the vast majority are solidly anti-American.

Also, did I say you hated America? I said that you constantly portray it in the most negative light. I do the same thing to liberals. Does that mean I hate them? Hardly.

quote:

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Why would I still be on this board if I thought that. I enjoy a good discussion with some members of this board, but if you would rather have a discussion with only one point of view then fine. Don't blame me when it gets boring or unproductive.

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I do welcome contrary points of view. However, I get tired of constant pounding of the same old drum to the same old tune. The words change, but the insturment never does.

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:



To be honest I don't think they were much of a threat to "us" (how come everybody here thinks in terms of them and us? US vs the world? I don't) - it is obvious that these terrorists target America specifically. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it isn't "our" problem as long as we're safe from danger, I just wanted to point out the above. Guess it rubs me in the wrong way when Americans point out how they protect us all - kinda like "if we hadn't been around you'd all be speaking German by now (*yawn*)", I mean, do you do it because you care or because you like to brag about it? We have a saying in Holland: Good wine needs no laurels.

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If there had been Karma on this site
It'd give you an Applaud [img]smile.gif[/img]

"if we hadn't been around you'd all be speaking German by now (*yawn*)"

About this
Am I wrong or did you do Nothing
untill You got attacked?

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Konfuzed and Zany:


First of all
Foprum Policy
"I might not agree with what you have to say
But I'll Defend the Gut right to say it"

So nobody has to put up and shut up

Nationalism...
Nationalism is the thriving power behind War and Suffering
And at the very moment
It is the USA who displays a dangerous amount of Nationalism
You say "I don't give a rat's ass at this point about the Geneva Convention" and that is just what is wrong with the USA lately
You don;t give a rats ass about Any convention
be it the Kyoto, Geneva or the anti-rocket shield convention
I think it would be best if you would be put in isolation for a while to show you You Do need the World and You need to respect the world

Alright
About there condition being better then they ever had
I doubt it

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I was not aware that this forum is the media........if it is, then please advice the moderators as I have gravely trounced on the rules.

If you take my comments out of context, which you have, then I definitely appear to be a very hateful, self-righteous American. Taken *in* context, however, they are my opinion, stated concisely. I *said* "I don't give a rat's ass about.........these indiviuals are *not* being mistreated." Please finish the quote if you are going to use it to throw a miniature flame, be it personally aimed or at a nation.

And I will reiterate, under the Geneva Convention--which I have read as well as operated under as a member of the United States military as well as two siblings (one at the moment on alert still) and other family members through the years--according to the terms stated in the Geneva Convention, these individuals do *not* qualitfy for prisoner of war status. Does this mean we (and that is the generic we) can beat them, starve them and otherwise make their lives a living hell? Of course not. But then again, I wasn't aware that that was what we were doing.