Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[Garnet FalconDance]

Barry, I wasn't after you, darlin'. My post was in direct response to Tarox's suppositions (and I quoted him above to be sure I addressed pertinent points). I agree with you in that humane treatment of *anyone* is preferable, future relations or not. (Do unto others ....) *If* anyone was flaming or in danger of sparking the tinder, it was the one to whom I responded.

[Barry the Sprout]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
Flame Wars? Who needs those? Believe what you want and share what you want to here. No worries! I'll tell you when you're wrong... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

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Thanks Ronn! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

What evidence will I accept? I will be blunt about this, I would quite like to be able to go in myself. But that is never going to happen. What I am saying is that the UN doesn't beleive the treatment meets that Geneva Convention, which is cause for concern. Even with the IRCs gaurantee I am worried. Also I am slightly concerned because the local Amnesty International society have a called a campaign meeting about it (I am not heavily involved but I know the leader so I help out where I can). I want to see what they make of the whole thing, more about that later on today hopefully.

I will praise America if you want. Compared to Britain at present you have a constitution that ensures democracy, and a much greater involvement by the average citizen in political life. The gap between rich and poor is smaller I beleive as well. But that is not relevant to this thread is it?

[Donut]

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Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:
I say after we are through interrogating them, we ship them back to their countries of origin! I'm sure they'll be greeted with open arms there!!! Of course within a a couple of days they might be minus a head!

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We don't do that sort of thing here.

[Donut]

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:

And the world community--if you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Put up or shut up would be my advice to you.

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Thank you for the advice Garnet, forgive me if I don't take it. You see, I'm just as entitled to voice my opinion as you are.

[Nachtrafe]

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
After I read this thread this morn and got all caught up, I finished reading the newspaper. Of course, there was an article on the Taliban/Al Quaida prisoners, their treatment, etc. It was quite clear that there are more permanent (relatively speaking) facilities for their internment are being built--and they even get air conditioning!

But the thing that really stuck in my mind is the fact that, while these individuals were part of a group who actively sought the harm and/or annihilation of any American possible, they have better medical care than my own children who are many generation native born Americans! Doctors and nurses on compound 24/7, free of charge. I don't give a rat's ass at this point about the Geneva Convention, rather we officially declared war against the country or against the governing body or even if their beard were shaved! These individuals are *NOT* being mistreated!!! Their freedom has been curtailed, yes. However, they now have their very own US Muslim chaplain to lead them in prayer and better living conditions they may have ever known in some cases---***all at the expense of ME and YOU and the survivors of the New York and Pennsylvania tragedies.***

While I am not a warmonger and I do uphold the laws if at all possible, I find that in this particular circumstance I cannot be objective.

IMO (never humble), let them rot in a ditch somewhere rather than keep them in fine style.

The media needs to back off and shut up.

And the world community--if you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Put up or shut up would be my advice to you.

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*Wild cheering and applause is heard throughtout the room*

I read that very same article and was so mad that I wanted to shoot something...namely some *THINGS* down in Camp X-Ray. Awesome post GF!

[Nachtrafe]

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Originally posted by Tarox:
If the USA mistreats these guys (no matter what they deserve) then there is no excuse for complaints the next time Yank troops get captured in the Middle East and are tortured physically and mentally.

I always think how despicable those nations are for abusing NATO troops and civilians and how it would never happend in the west cos we are not barbaric.......yet the USA is a law unto itself as always, mistreating these terrorists is saying to me
"We don't care what you do to any troops or civilans of ours cos we do the same things to your guys"

We the West are meant to be so much better than east and yet here is America the Great Western SuperPower just proving they are no better and abusing these prisioners...
No-one is dumb enough to believe anything that is said about they are not mistreated etc etc

Sure people want them to suffer but don't we want our guys to be treated humanely as we would treat their guys? Apparently not according to the US but they will be first to shout next time NATO troops get beaten and abused when captured

Too many people are just saying stuff them, thinking with blind rage and not with their head...
Just remember how you all wanted to see them suffer when the next terriorist attack hits the US.......cos there will be one, you are naive to think people don't see this all around the world, and their will be plans for reprisals going on, this will surely not have helped.


Nothing will change and I'm sure some of those big-wigs in the White House will think back on how they treated these prisioners when USA gets hit again.....

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Ummm...Hello??? Is this thing on? *waves hand in front of Tarox's face* Anyone awake? Hi there. I'm Mister Reality Check. I'll be informing you of this little thing called "What's really going on."

*AHEM*

In what way does 3 square meals a day, a soft bed, clean sheets, clean clothes, 2 nice fluffy towels(one of which makes a handy prayer rug), 24/7 medical care, and freedom to exercise their religious beliefs constitute 'mistreatment'? And, that being the case...how does that possibly equate to NATO/US soldiers being tortured and killed when captured by enemy governments? I mean...perhaps I'm the one who's confused here, but somehow, I doubt it.

[Nachtrafe]

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:



Tarox,

Point 1--So, then, if Americans *don't* mistreat these prisoners, the next time our troops are caught in the Middle East, they *won't* be tortured? Mighty civil in theory, I must admit. Too bad it doesn't work like that in reality.

Point 2--"We the west are meant to be so much better than east..." Says who?!? Talk about smug. "No one is dumb enough to believe anything that is said about they are not mistreated etc. etc." Hmm. Let us review just a few small FACTS:

**An Islamic cleric has been provided to see to their spiritual needs as well as to provide cultural orientation (classes) to the American guards and to advise the post commander.

**Their heads will not be shaved again, tho the beard issue is still under consideration (for hygienic reasons, presumably).

**Oh, and did I mention that 400 copies of the Koran were given to the prisoners so that they might be comforted by their relgious text--the same text, by the way, that their leaders claim tell them point blank it was their god-given duty to kill all Americans (and other assorted infidels)?

**Tents are being erected to provide better shelter until more permanent quarters can be built, quarters which will include air conditioning.

**A revolving medical staff of a minimum of one doctor and 30 nurses is available 24/7 to see to any medical needs these poor mistreated prisoners may have. This will occur in a brand new field hospital being finished especially for these detainees.

**These prisoners are fed nutritious meals and all their other basic needs are now provided, all at the expense of the *American* public. Granted, their freedom is curtailed, but then again, so are prison inmates (and we keep them fat and sassy, too).

**Malaysia has lodged complaint for the perceived "inhumane" treatment of the prisoners, but then again, they also have not been bothered to personally witness the treatment or offer assistance. Britain's Tony Blair states the British-born prisoners should be returned to Great Britain, but not because they are being mistreated--because if tried by a military tribunal, they are liable for the death penalty, something presumably which the British people would object to.

**You're right. My intelligence is called into question. Surely the above aptly illustrates severe mistreatment.

Point 3--"People want them to suffer..." Sorry, basic human reaction. HOWEVER, since these men are not all lying in a ditch with a neat hole in the middle of their foreheads (which would not only have been far more cost efficient but sure to punish the guilty parties with unquestionable accuracy), I would say your statement is moot.

Point 4--Thank you for the warning of future attacks. I'm not sure we would have recognized the possibility through our "blind rage".

Point 5--You're right. If the US should ever be hit again, the American big wigs as well as the regular folk and the military will *rue* the fact that these prisoners were treated so ~well~!

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Garnet FalconDance ]

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*More cheers and wild applause*

[Nachtrafe]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


Looking at pictures of a situation vs an ongoing physical inspection and you choose to believe the one which puts the US in the worst light? I find that hard to believe...lol

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

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Hiya Ronn...Maybe I'm too cynical, but, having read a great many of Barry's posts, I have absolutely no problem believing that Barry will automatically take the view that puts the US in the worst light.

You can say what you want to Barry, but that has been your Modus Operandi as long as I have been reading your posts. It gets very very tired.

[Nachtrafe]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


You make a good point, but my impression was that those being brought to Camp X-Ray are the hard core Al-Queta fighters.

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Correct. The prisoners in Camp X-Ray are Al-Queda officers and higher-ups. The Taliban soldiers, by and large are being left to the tender mercies of the Northern Alliance. Almost makes me feel sorry for them....almost.

[Donut]

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:


In what way does 3 square meals a day, a soft bed, clean sheets, clean clothes, 2 nice fluffy towels(one of which makes a handy prayer rug), 24/7 medical care, and freedom to exercise their religious beliefs constitute 'mistreatment'? And, that being the case...how does that possibly equate to NATO/US soldiers being tortured and killed when captured by enemy governments? I mean...perhaps I'm the one who's confused here, but somehow, I doubt it.

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When the prisoners first arrived they were chained, manacled, blindfolded and had their ears and mouths covered. They were also forced to kneel in an extremely uncomfortable position. These are extremely dangerous men and I can understand the military not wanting to take any chances with them. What I can't understand is why these pictures were released (actually I can ). Wouldn't it have been better to wait until they were ensconced in the luxury that you have described?

One other thought, if the situation were reversed and you were presented with pictures of 158 US servicemen being treated this way just how angry would you be? How much would you want your country to hit back at the captors? How much would you want to see them suffer?

Now take the anger that you feel, multiply it by a 100 and put it into the head of a 16 year old muslim who already feels he has an axe to grind.

Has there been any talk about what will happen to these men once they have been found guilty by the military tribunal? I would imagine that some will be executed. If they are, will we be allowed to watch? Of the others, will the US lock them up for life? If they are released at some time they are almost certain to return to their old ways, surely that can't be allowed?