Palestenians in the Church of the Nativity...

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: quote: Originally posted by Thoran: Do you know where the briefing was published? While the Israeli's have a formidable military, an all-out conflict in the region would most certainly not be so predetermined in outcome. Saudi Arabia very nearly borders on Israeli territory (15 miles maybe?), and they would be hard pressed to stay neutral in such a conflict (and not have a civil war on their hands). You also have Iraq well within striking distance. The most likely scenario to that level of Israeli agression would be a broad reprisal from the entire region... and Saudi Arabia alone would be more than a match for the Israeli's (The Saudi Military budget is somewhere around 250% that of Israel) Luckily even the Hard liners in Israel are not suggesting such a solution... and I think the Palestinians would find that peaceful methods would be much more likely to achieve their goals with the Israeli's than these attacks. They should start dropping books of the life of Ghandi over Arab territories... the Arabs just don't seem to get the idea that terrorism is just not going to get what they want, but civil disobediance has proven to be a powerful tool for change.

The Isrealis aren't afraid of the Saudis. The Saudi Army is not that great. Sure, they may spend a lot on weapons, but they lack the will to fight. They would rather hire some one else to do their fighting for them. I was there in 1991. They are rather ragtag and I have no doubt that the Isreali army would have little trouble handling them. Or for that matter Jordon, Syria, Egpyt, and Iraq.

Those countries have little will to fight as well, while the Isreali's have everything to fight for. Besides that, if It looks like Isreal is going o lose, then they will nuke all of their enemies. Then who wins... umm... does NO ONE seem like a good guess.[/QUOTE]Israel is what 6-0 against the Arabs I don't think the Arabs want to go 7-0

[Thoran]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Israel is what 6-0 against the Arabs I don't think the Arabs want to go 7-0

This is exactly the logical error that could get the Israeli's into a very difficult situation. Past performance is not a guarantee of future success. Prior conflicts were HEAVILY influenced by out outside forces (East vs. West).

Some of the "Myth of Israeli Invincibility" was created during the Yom Kippur War, when the Israelis had the almost superhuman ability to intercept every Egyptian move with overwhelming force. Of course during that entire operation the Israelis were getting a constant feed of tactical data from US Spyplanes. Given the value of information in military operations... how much of an impact would such tactical data have on a conflict? Look at Desert Storm and you'll know the answer.

I recommend you forget what's happened in the past and look at the strategic situation today.

- Saudi and Egypt have achieved technological parity with the Israelis... something that was never true in the past.
- All Arab countries will have access to the same level of tactical intelligence that the Israeli's have (assuming the West stays on the sidelines... which it will).
- The Israel's have never fought a multi-front war... which could happen in this case.

Sir Talisin's point about the reserve is astute... the Israeli reserve is renouned for it's level of preparedness (whereas the Arab countries have virtually useless reserves). The risk here for Israel is that they're getting the whole region in an uproar... and if Iraq commits forces... and if Saudi commits forces.... too many IF's. Several of these countries have very large standing Armies, and these armies are fairly well equipped and prepared (as opposed to their reserve forces). It's a very risky strategic position for Israel to be in... especially without the big stick waiting in the background to bail em out if they get into trouble.

[ 04-06-2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[John D Harris]

The reason the Israelis have won their wars is their nations "WILL", and their will to not be defeated, until they lose that they are going to be inveceable(SP?) to the Arabs. In 83 at the great "Bakka Valley Turkey shoot" the IAF had what a 230:1 kill ratio. Everybody in the USAF said see our planes are better than the USSR's. I'll bet the farm (and the girl down the road) that the results would of been the same if the IAF was flying the migs and the Sryrains were flying our planes.It is not the plane it's the pilot, their training, their will, their desire.

[rabbit_ate_trix]

Originally posted by MagiK: Personally I view the Palistinians as terrorists and believe that they are just being cowardly and hiding in the church to save their skins...which is what sanctuary is all about I suppose.

i'm sorry but that sounds like the opinion of the typical ignoramus being brainwashed by George W's shiny white teeth and charming smile.

everything is terrorist this terrorist that now. no one realizes that the amount of actual sadistic terrorists our there is very very few and none are being talked about in this.

the "war on terrorism" is crap. i think Osama is messed up but he's not doing it just for the purpose of hurting someone. he is misinformed about many global\political issues and is acting accordingly.

everyone in the world needs to put themselves in the other's shoes.

back to the palestine thing:

the palestines had their land stolen by the Jews, originally at the hand of God (i'm a Christain that goes against most typical beliefs, so i have no answer to this other than one side surrendering and giving up) and now at the hand of the USA (which are the current God in this world as far as influence and power go)
the taking of this land was originally necessary but the way the USA did it was a lot of things i'm not going to get into such as them trying to be God.
these "terrorist bombers" are fighting for their beliefs. their countries can't afford an army and the people are living in poverty, because of losing their land.

that probably sounds very unorganized and incomplete, but that's due to two thing:
1] the situation is impossible to really have an opinion on, because both sides are being idiots about it.
2] i can never clarify my opinions in language.

[rabbit_ate_trix]

Originally posted by John D Harris: The reason the Israelis have won their wars is their nations "WILL", and their will to not be defeated, until they lose that they are going to be inveceable(SP?) to the Arabs. In 83 at the great "Bakka Valley Turkey shoot" the IAF had what a 230:1 kill ratio. Everybody in the USAF said see our planes are better than the USSR's. I'll bet the farm (and the girl down the road) that the results would of been the same if the IAF was flying the migs and the Sryrains were flying our planes.It is not the plane it's the pilot, their training, their will, their desire.

the Palestines have just as much will, in fact if it weren't for the USA's intervening in the 50s Isreal woudldn't exist.

the USA gave Isreal their entire army.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by rabbit_ate_trix: quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: The reason the Israelis have won their wars is their nations "WILL", and their will to not be defeated, until they lose that they are going to be inveceable(SP?) to the Arabs. In 83 at the great "Bakka Valley Turkey shoot" the IAF had what a 230:1 kill ratio. Everybody in the USAF said see our planes are better than the USSR's. I'll bet the farm (and the girl down the road) that the results would of been the same if the IAF was flying the migs and the Sryrains were flying our planes.It is not the plane it's the pilot, their training, their will, their desire.

the Palestines have just as much will, in fact if it weren't for the USA's intervening in the 50s Isreal woudldn't exist.

the USA gave Isreal their entire army.[/QUOTE]In 1948 the Arabs attacked and lost, the USA Did NOT give the Israelis the army. In 1956 the Arabs attacked and Lost the USA DID NOT give the Israelis the army. Having weapons and knowing how and when to use them are not the same thing.
You always make the other guy fight YOUR fight not his. If you had read what some of the members on the board , who have acctualy trained with BOTH the Israeli and Arab armies you will see there is a differance in WILLS. The Israeli army trains for KEEPS, they know their every existance depends on IT.

Originally posted by Thoran: Israel against the Regional powers would be a disaster for the Israeli's.

Only in an economic sense, which could end up being the end of Israel I admit. However due to the nature of the forces involved the actual "war" would be won by Israel, so a guess it would be a pyrhic victory.

The regional armies that could be arrayed against Israel do not have the "WILL" to fight to the death. As someone else put it, "They would rather hire someone else to fight for them" the old "lets you and him fight" strategy. AND do not forget, the only nuclear power here IS Israel, do not think that they would not use these weapons if things looked bad for them.

Originally posted by Blade: One point in this that no one is making is that if the palistinians took refuge in one of there churches the isrials wouldn't have waited at all to storm in and make them prizinors the only reason why it slowed it down was it was in a one of there own churchs that they took refuge in.

Huh?

I doubt seriously that a JEW would care too much about the birth place of Christ. Christians and Jews have this little difference of opinion on the divinity or lack there of of Jesus Christ...

Originally posted by rabbit_ate_trix: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Personally I view the Palistinians as terrorists and believe that they are just being cowardly and hiding in the church to save their skins...which is what sanctuary is all about I suppose.

i'm sorry but that sounds like the opinion of the typical ignoramus being brainwashed by George W's shiny white teeth and charming smile.

everything is terrorist this terrorist that now. no one realizes that the amount of actual sadistic terrorists our there is very very few and none are being talked about in this.

the "war on terrorism" is crap. i think Osama is messed up but he's not doing it just for the purpose of hurting someone. he is misinformed about many global\political issues and is acting accordingly.

everyone in the world needs to put themselves in the other's shoes.

back to the palestine thing:

the palestines had their land stolen by the Jews, originally at the hand of God (i'm a Christain that goes against most typical beliefs, so i have no answer to this other than one side surrendering and giving up) and now at the hand of the USA (which are the current God in this world as far as influence and power go)
the taking of this land was originally necessary but the way the USA did it was a lot of things i'm not going to get into such as them trying to be God.
these "terrorist bombers" are fighting for their beliefs. their countries can't afford an army and the people are living in poverty, because of losing their land.

that probably sounds very unorganized and incomplete, but that's due to two thing:
1] the situation is impossible to really have an opinion on, because both sides are being idiots about it.
2] i can never clarify my opinions in language.[/QUOTE]Ummmm you call ME an ignoramus then talk about the USA creating Israel...better get some education on the matter kiddo, the USA didn't grant the Jews the land, that was done by international committee.

And I have believe that the palistinians were terrorists since the 70's so umm exactly how is George W. Bush involved there?? I will also note, that I do not support Bush' stand on the Palistinians, you will notice he is telling Israel to pull back and has NOT refered to the Palistinians in any way shape or for as being terrorists.

So lets compare IQ's and go head to head on this...or would you like to apologize for making this personal?

Originally posted by rabbit_ate_trix: quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: [qb]

the Palestines have just as much will, in fact if it weren't for the USA's intervening in the 50s Isreal woudldn't exist.

the USA gave Isreal their entire army.[/QUOTE]Your lack of knowledge of history astounds me.
but I won't call you an ignoramus. I'll just tell you to reresearch your history.

PS. The usa did NOT give Israel it's army..an army is made up of people. We may have supplied them with Arms, but we also supply Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other ME nations with equipment. The Israeli's actually have been producing their own equipment that is superior to US equipment in their particular environment. (along with what htey import) The Israeli Main Battle Tank, the "Merkava" is an outstanding design and probably the most capable tank in the region.

Im starting to think that the Rabbit that ate trix is just a troll who is looking for a reply.