About the Protests...What I am "NOT" hearing...

[pritchke]

In Calgary we have had several large protest that were peaceful in the past several weeks that do not disturb traffic a great deal. There was one on Saturday and it seemed to be moving along fine. One of the reasons could be that the city is activly involved in the protest. Certain streets are chosen and Police actually lead the protest, block off, roads so that you just need to go a few blocks down ahead or behind the protest to get buy them. Ambulances seem to have no problems getting to hospitals, possibly good work and communication between police and ambulance services. I assume that they do the same thing in other cities. So I am not sure why some become so chatoic?

[ 03-24-2003, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Ronn_Bman]

They become chaotic because some groups don't plan these things with officials who can work with them. They become chaotic because the goal of some protestors IS chaos.

[Donut]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Quote: Originally posted by Melusine: Whether or not you think this war should be fought, it remains a fact that it's illegal and will probably wrench countries apart.

Miss Melusine Ma'am, the rest of you're post was on target. On the above point I'll refer you to this: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cg...;f=14;t=000541
TL's post at the bottom , he is a lawyer and does this type of thing for a living (check out legalities and such). This war shouldn't wrench any counties apart unless they are almost to that point already.[/QUOTE]TL may well be a lawyer but I'll bet that for every lawyer you can find saying it's legal I can find one to say it's legal. But as there is no forum to try the case it doesn't really matter. In this case might is right.

[Melusine]

Miss Melusine Ma'am, the rest of you're post was on target. On the above point I'll refer you to this: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cg...;f=14;t=000541 TL's post at the bottom , he is a lawyer and does this type of thing for a living (check out legalities and such). This war shouldn't wrench any counties apart unless they are almost to that point already.[/QB]

Hi John. [img]smile.gif[/img]
To me there is no denying that this war DOES wrench countries apart, and saying it would have happened anyway, war or no, IMHO misses an important point and shows little sense of realism.
What I am talking about is that the strained relationship (to put it VERY mildly) between countries like France, Germany, the USA, the UK and many others are a DIRECT consequence of this war. It would not have occured in the same strength without it. And it works on all levels. It doesn't just alienate countries from each other, it alienates people.
What hurts me most about this war is the casualties on both sides. Bush and Blair became armchair generals, but it's their soldiers who die for it. The war is supposed to liberate Iraq, but all the Iraqis who die in it will not be around to see their country's liberation.
But even though the deaths and ruination of a people is what I hate most about this war, I also hate the fact that many people feel alienated from one another, feel misunderstood, accidentally or not-so-accidentally hurt people they called friends, etc.
That is a horrible consequence of the war too, and can definitely be classified as 'wrenching apart".
I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for people like Masklinn and Moiraine, because I know how much courage it takes for them to keep posting here and how much it hurts them to see occasional prejudice cloud people's judgement. I've also read Ronn's posts with admiration, because he has remained open-minded while at the same time having strong opinions. But I've also seen enough to make me feel alienated here.

There are anti-Western undercurrents in many Arabic countries already, but that doesn't mean this war won't inflame them further! So thinking this war will not wrench countries apart is just not true! Think of the situationwith the Kurds and the Turks. America wants to free the Iraqis (of which the Iraqi Kurds are a part) but they needed Turkey's permission to use the airspace above their country. What happens now if the massed Turk troops in Northern Iraq start slaughtering the Kurds? Saddam Hussein is Satan incarnate, but Kurds have suffered death from his hands and those of the Turks alike.
There are just long term consequences of the Allied Force's interference in the area that might have a much deeper effect than we can see now.

It's fine for you to say "well people shouldn't get worked up because it's obvious that this war is perfectly legal". But in doing so you miss the point that many countries DISAGREE with you there. So you may think the war OUGHT NOT to wrench countries apart, but in doing so you close your eyes to the reality that it's already happened.

PS. I would really appreciate it very much if you'd just call me Melusine, or Mel if you'd like. This Miss Ma'am business is not necessary.

[ 03-25-2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Mel, calling women Miss amd Ma'am is traditional southern. We tend to respect women more and therefore talk a little more polite around them. We also open doors for women and allow them to go first. Stand when they stand and help them to set and even shut the car door for them! All part of being a southern gentleman. Set back and enjoy the treatment!

I personally have no problem with the protests. In my my mind it shows a health democracy or republic at work. It's a freedom that should be enjoyed every where. Of course, demostrators should not expect the Government to roll over to their wishs, especially when a large majority of the the public backs what is going on (That's the case here in the US. Poll after poll shows a large majority support the war and President Bush for that matter.). Violence also shouldn't be used, since, especially in peace demostrations, that tends to defeat the prepose of the message.

You have a good day Miss Mel!

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Mel, calling women Miss amd Ma'am is traditional southern. We tend to respect women more and therefore talk a little more polite around them. We also open doors for women and allow them to go first. Stand when they stand and help them to set and even shut the car door for them! All part of being a southern gentleman. Set back and enjoy the treatment!

Err yeah... I am aware of that Sir T, LOL! That was not the point I was trying to make.
You know, I am not even a native speaker of English, let alone one of your Southern Belles so the Miss Ma'am stuff has about as little meaning to me as calling you "weledelgeleerde heer" must have to you.
I also dare to question the assertion that the southern Americans respect women more than the men in for instance my country, or even that all women appreciate the slick "gentleman" stuff. [img]tongue.gif[/img] So I am very happy being called Mel, Mellie, Melusine or whatever, and am sorry to say the "Miss Ma'am" has no added value for me, though I of course very much appreciate the sentiment that you guys consider it to be respectful.

[Masklinn]

"Miss Mellie" sounds very cute though

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Masklinn: "Miss Mellie" sounds very cute though

[img]tongue.gif[/img] If you're a Southern Belle with a nice southern drawl and more boobs than brains, maybe. Sorry, that's the association it evokes in me. And I'd prefer not to have such an association attached to me
But like I said, I appreciate the sentiment, John and Sir Taliesin!

[Masklinn]

Woa, nothing of that kind intended Mel. Miss Mellie reminds me of Miss Celie from The Color Purple [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Masklinn: Woa, nothing of that kind intended Mel. Miss Mellie reminds me of Miss Celie from The Color Purple [img]smile.gif[/img]

LOL, I know you didn't mean anything like that, Masklinn!
It's just that John has consistently called all females on IW Miss ... Ma'am for as long as I know him, and while I know you mustn't teach old coots new tricks ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) I really wish he could just call me by my name

Edit to reply to Ronn (don't want to spam too much):

I was joking, Ronn!
Before I get Reeka on my case, it was a JOKE! I know you're not all cowboys and voluptuous barmaids in the south. Seriously though, I mean that. I most likely wouldn't be able to tell apart pictures of some Dutchmen and some Southern Americans just by looking at them.
What I meant is that the combination of my name and the Miss Ma'am thing just sounds really incongruous to me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-25-2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]