Looks like another shift to the right!

[Timber Loftis]

Cerek, it was someone else who mentioned that homosexuals were prefer it NOT be genetic. I think as with all things it's a combination of nature/nurture. All animals have homosexual tendancies, especially at young ages. The "play" stage of sexual exploration and maturation (like 8 to 11 yrs for humans) often includes gay and straight "play." Plus, some women are born tomboys, and some boys are less... hmmm... boy-ish, let's say. Obviously, it is an individual thing. And, yes, some CHOOSE it, and I have even known those who choose gay life looking for attention or in reaction to frustration with the opposite sex.

Your friends can do the same thing as marriage... basically. With some very expensive legal gyrations and documentation -- beginning with about 4 Powers of Attorney. It is expensive -- but sounds like they can afford it.

Out of curiosity, do you recall what places the "abominable" nature of gay relations is talked about in the bible?? I've been curious about this for a while. The way I see it, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were not sodomy per se, but rather over-indulgence of all sorts of hedonism. I mean, there is little doubt that God/Mother Nature gave us inlets and outlets, but I do not recall the bible being specific as to gay sex. I do recall that it says precious little about premarital sex, other than the fact that under the law the man must offer to marry the woman (but may refuse if the dowry is too small). That list I found in a book of bible lists once, but that was in like 1991, so the list of mentionings of homosexuality were not part of the book.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Cerek, it was someone else who mentioned that homosexuals were prefer it NOT be genetic.

My apologies, Timber. I was in a hurry and the posts had started to run together.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I think as with all things it's a combination of nature/nurture.

That is exactly the phrase I was trying {unsuccessfully} to think of. I do believe it is "outside factors" that contribute to homosexual desires. But I also believe the person may be completely unaware of some of these factors and - therefore - feel they were "born gay".

An illustrative example was a story I saw on TV many years ago investigating claims of reincarnation made by people. One lady said she KNEW she had lived as a farmwoman in Ireland many years before because she could vividly recall details of the farm, the surrounding land, and even mentioned specific of the buildings in the closest town - yet she had NEVER BEEN to Ireland in her entire life. What she did not remember was that her great-grandmother was actually the "farmwoman" from her previous life. Her great-granny had often kept her when she was an infant, and would tell her stories of the "old country" as she gently rocked her. The lady could remember very specific details from these stories - but never remebered hearing any of them from her great-grandmother (who died while she was still very young).

What does that have to do with the "nature/nurture" effect on homosexuality?? I believe many of these outside factors come into play long before the person is consciously aware of them...therefore, it may feel like they've been gay all their lives. That's my theory, anyway.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Out of curiosity, do you recall what places the "abominable" nature of gay relations is talked about in the bible?? I've been curious about this for a while. The way I see it, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were not sodomy per se, but rather over-indulgence of all sorts of hedonism. I mean, there is little doubt that God/Mother Nature gave us inlets and outlets, but I do not recall the bible being specific as to gay sex. I do recall that it says precious little about premarital sex, other than the fact that under the law the man must offer to marry the woman (but may refuse if the dowry is too small). That list I found in a book of bible lists once, but that was in like 1991, so the list of mentionings of homosexuality were not part of the book.

One reason your search may have come up empty is that the word "homosexuality" is NOT used in the Bible. The act is described, but this terminology came many years after even the King James Version. Here are some of the relevant passages -

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, you are correct that it was about all manner of excessive sexual hedonism...but homosexuality was rampant. When God sent two angels {in human form} to visit Lot and judge Sodom and Gomorrah, all the men of the city came to his house demanding that Lot turn these men out to them. Lot even offers his two virgin daughters to the crowd to appease their lust, but they are not interested in that compromise. Here are the relevant verses for this incident -

Genesis 19
[1] And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
[2] And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
[3] And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
[4] But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
[5] And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
[6] And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
[7] And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
[8] Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
[9] And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
[10] But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
[11] And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
[12] And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
[13] For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

As you can see, the Bible does take a very strong stance against homosexuality. Of course, it also takes a very strong stance against adultery too. God even took time to write that one in stone, but unfortunately, it doesn't carry the same "stigma" as homosexuality does in our society.

[Timber Loftis]

Thanks for the info, Cerek, very nice indeed. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

That passage from Genesis 19, though, says to me that the men outside wanted the 2 men Lot housed because they knew they were there to judge Sodom and Gomorrah. I did not read homosexuality into that passage when I encountered it before, and I still think it's vague.

Of course, Leviticus isn't so vague.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Thanks for the info, Cerek, very nice indeed. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] That passage from Genesis 19, though, says to me that the men outside wanted the 2 men Lot housed because they knew they were there to judge Sodom and Gomorrah. I did not read homosexuality into that passage when I encountered it before, and I still think it's vague. Of course, Leviticus isn't so vague.

I'm sure you've heard the phrase "I'd like to know him/her in the Biblical sense". I'm sure you also know that is a "nice" way of saying you would like to have sex with that person.

That's because the Bible uses the term "know" in place of intercourse or sexual relations.

Now read Genesis 19:5-9 again. The men of Sodom demand Lot send out these strangers so that they may "know" them. Lot implores them not to act so wickedly and offers his two virgin daughters instead - but this only makes the men angrier. They then threaten to attack Lot and do even worse things to him than they wanted to do to the "strangers".

If the men wanted to attack the strangers for being judges, why would Lot offer his daughters to them? That doesn't make sense if they were just angry at the men. It does make sense if Lot is offering them a different "outlet" to satisfy their lust.

[Timber Loftis]

Actually, it doesn't make sense AT ALL to offer them his nubile young ones.

But, I get your point. While I knew that "know" often meant that, I completely turned a blind eye to it in this passage.

[edit]
Erm... Dare I ask. You don't have any biblical quotes off the top of your head regarding... erm [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] .... masturbation, do you?? Look, as someone who doesn't believe in God, I know I'm going to Hell if/when my time at the Pearly Gates comes. But, I'd rather it be for the right reasons. Let's just say if I was a Catholic, it would take teams of relatives to pray me out of purgatory.

[ 05-19-2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Of course TL, we are all sure that you only ask about the Masturbation passages because of umm a "friend" wanted to know right? It wasnt because you wanted to know... hehe

What would be really cool is if the Dead Sea Scrolls and the other original texts were made available for public viewing...and allowing others not associated with Israel to translate them independantly...Translation is always tricky and I can see quite a few differences between the King James version and other versions of the Bible..the Catholic Bible has several extra books that don't appear in other Bibles and vice versa.

[Timber Loftis]

It's because I'd be scared to death of the governmental boogey man if I lived in Alabama or one of the 4 other states where self-gratification is illegal. Ooops... did I say that out loud?? [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img]

Well, at least the sexual revolution didn't only free women up to talk plainly and openly.

[Timber Loftis]

MagiK, "cannonization" as you mention is a BIG issue. What books go into the "bible" is certainly one of those issues that points out how it is really a book made by humans and not the sacred "word of god" some narrow-view religions try to pretend it is. In the days of ancient Judaism, the Church, School, and Governmental House sat altogether, and control of all was a centralized governmental thing.

If you are interested, I have a term paper addressing The Gospel of Thomas, one of the New Testament apocrapha found at Nag Hamadi. I also have several bibliographical references to other books discussing the New Testament apocrapha (meaning: books that were de-cannonized from the bible). The Gospel of Thomas is the gospel of the desciple Jesus sent "east" with his message. In true missionary style, this gospel closely parallels other eastern books, and makes Jesus out to be a wizened Lao Tzu type fella. "The cistern is empty, yet the people all do drink." My paper compared passages from this Gospel to passages from the Tao Te Ching.

Christianity's marketability in foreign locales certainly derives from its ability to speak the Gospel in terms of the virtues and lessons the locals already hold dear.

[mysticelt]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: MagiK, "cannonization" as you mention is a BIG issue.

Cannonization? Is the Pope shooting people out of big guns again? Ha Ho!


This is MagiK by the by, I hijacked Mysti's puter.

Edit: Email the paper TL [img]smile.gif[/img] I am always interested in new stuff [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-19-2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: mysticelt ]