10-20-2004, 04:03 PM | #11 | ||||||
Dracolisk
Join Date: September 16, 2001
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 46
Posts: 6,901
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This is not even counting UAI. Once UAI is called into play, then the Swashbuckler is pretty much immune to any physical attacks that don't come from people like Abazigal, and makes the Swashbuckler able to match the Blade spell for spell. There's also the fact that the Swashbuckler's THAC0 also applies to missile weapons, making him a better archer than a Blade (or Sharpshooter kit from G3) could ever be. Quote:
Staff of the Magi. Time Stop. Whack. Belm + Kundane. Another Time Stop. Dead Pontifex. Total party hitpoint loss: 0 You were saying? A Blade could do this, true, but only by using Vhailor's Helm.
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10-20-2004, 04:54 PM | #12 |
Drizzt Do'Urden
Join Date: March 18, 2004
Location: Where silent gods stand guard
Age: 33
Posts: 699
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But a blade still COULD. I have to say, i solo'd a blade and became a real nasty figher.Then wehn you chuck a few spells around you're unstoppable.Meh, i'll always love the blade.
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10-21-2004, 04:39 AM | #13 |
Elminster
Join Date: October 12, 2004
Location: The Green Pastures of England\'s Fields
Age: 36
Posts: 458
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Right. The Wave Blade pieces can be found:
i) If you save Haer'dalis (A very good bard) from Mekrath then go to the playhouse in the Bridge District, the actors there will perform a spell which opens a portal to another plane. That plane is a prison where the actors are now held in. In that prison there is a cambion called the Warden. If you kill him you will find the shaft to the Wave Blade on his body. ii) Later on in the game, you will come to the Sanguin City. After you go through that storyline you have to side with the king (or kill the prince after you help him if your evil). You will do some wuests and then have to murder the prince. As far as I know it is the prince with the Blade to the weapon so take it of his dead body. That should do the trick. When you get back to Athkatla, go to Cromwell and he will assemble the Blade [img]smile.gif[/img]
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10-21-2004, 06:56 AM | #14 | |||
Quintesson
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
Age: 43
Posts: 1,088
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I'm not trying to say that Blades will always be better than Swashbucklers, since I like them both very much, I am simply suggesting that Blades are far, far from useless if used properly. Quote:
If you are referring to spell protections cast from scrolls - again a Blade can do this without UAI so it's pretty much even stevens. If you are referring to a godly AC that can barely be touched, again the Blade has the defensive spin ability, which combined with any armour combination that the Swashbuckler can muster will always be better that the swashbucklers AC bonuses. Sure, the Blade can't move in this state (unless you cheese it with Free Action) but enemies in the game that threaten a great AC will always come to the character anyway. Ultimately - offensive spin matches the offensive capabilities of a Swashbuckler (the Blade is lacking +7 to hit in the most extreme case, but this will only cause problems in the most extreme battles for which spells such as TT will help, or even potions of power if need be), defensive spin surpasses the AC bonus of the Swashbuckler and the spell buffs of the Bard will give him the fighting advantage until the Swashbuckler reaches godly levels. Quote:
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10-21-2004, 06:36 PM | #15 | |||||||
Dracolisk
Join Date: September 16, 2001
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 46
Posts: 6,901
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List of things where a Blade beats a Fighter/Mage: Bard Song that barely does anything A weakened version of the least useful Thieving skill Woo! High Lore! Running around real fast List of things where a Fighter/Mage beats a Blade: THAC0 AC Saving Throws ApR Hitpoints Spellslots Spell levels Equipment restrictions Stronghold (not really a power consideration, but still) Race restrictions Quote:
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A Blade can kick some major ass when buffed to the gills. A Swashbuckler is kickass 24/7. Quote:
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As for the alleged rarity of Time Stop scrolls, there are 5 of them in unmodded SoA. As for Dual-wielding in general, I only picked Nalia as the worst possible example; why Dual with her when she's just fine with Tuigan or Gesen?
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10-26-2004, 09:00 AM | #16 | ||||||||
Quintesson
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
Age: 43
Posts: 1,088
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A weakened version of the least useful Thieving skill - True, although there are a couple of instances where being able to pick pockets is useful. High Lore - simply a time/money saver, although a F/M will have no issues idenfitying anything anyway. Running around real fast - I assume you mean via Offensive Spin combined with boots of speed? I suppose this at least means that no opponent is going to run away from you (not that this would be much use in game, I agree). I feel more credit needs to be given to the Offensive/Defensive spins. Offensive spin grants an extra attack - mostly making up for the lack of ApR compared to a warrior, maximum damage from the weapons! - i.e. a super KI that lasts far longer, and +2 to hit and damage which makes up for the lack of specialisation. What does this mean? It means that when dealing with 95% of the foes in the game, the melee offensive abilities of the Blade beat those of a F/M. The other 5% will give the Blade problems due to the relatively poor THAC0, something the warrior classes do not suffer from, but then there's buffing/summoning which the blade can use to help deal with this minority of "thorn/ass interaction" enemies. Quote:
AC - not really. Defensive spin combined with some decent equipment/chain mail whoops any AC a F/M can come up with, however the F/M can have a superior permanant AC. Once you get UAI - any AC a F/M can manage gets trumped by the Blade. Saving Throws - true. ApR - true - However the Blade can get 4 ApR using certain weapons, 5 with OS which has hit the cap anyway. Hitpoints - I disagree. At the start of SoA, an 89,000XP F/M will have roughly (assuming 18 CON and max D10/D4) (6*((1D10+4)/2)+(6*((1D4+2)/2) = 42+18=60HP. In contrast, an 89,000XP Blade (assuming 16 CON and max D6) will have (8*(1D6+2)) = 64HP. We can take this to the other extreme of 8 million XP giving 24/20 levels of F/M compared to 40 of Bard: F/M: ((9*((1D10+4)/2))+(10*((1D4+2)/2))+(15*2)+(10*1)) = 63 (fighter class) + 30 (mage class) + 30 (fighter HP post level 9) + 10 (mage HP post level 10) = 133HP. Blade: (10*(1D6+2))+(30*2) = 140HP. So we have 133HP for a F/M, compared to 140HP for a Blade, and that's even with 18CON vs 16. Spellslots: Agreed. Spell levels: Agreed, although high level scrolls can still be cast by the Blade. Equipment restrictions: Agreed, but becomes nullified through UAI. Stronghold: Bah! But agreed. Race: Agreed. The F/M is certainly a superior overall class due to the excellent spell casting power, and I'm not trying to say that a Blade can compete power wise, but for the majority of the game the Blade can hold his own. Quote:
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You may not have ever appreciated HD in the party, but with a permanant 60% physical resistance attainable (the highest permamant physical resistance of any other NPC or PC a player can come up with) I've sure been glad to have him from time to time. Again, this is preference. Quote:
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On a side note, a Blade can achieve a lower AC than a swashbuckler can. Sure it won't be permamant, but is nontheless manageable. If a swashbuckler can keep piling equipment on until he reaches the cap, that's as far as he's going. This may be considered cheesy (in fact I'm fairly sure it is), but a blade can use his DS (and even improved bard song ability) to actually bypass the AC cap...I need to investigate this more but I'm sure it's possible. Basically, it involves reaching the cap, but still having an abundance of items/abilities left to push the AC beyond the cap, once the cap has been reached. |
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10-26-2004, 04:32 PM | #17 |
Elminster
Join Date: August 30, 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 39
Posts: 463
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ARGH! I just did all this research and lost my post...grrrrr......
Anyway, your math is gimped, suffice it to say that the F/M actually ends up with 149 HP, and the Blade ends up with 134. Second, constant HiS checks are not necesarry when sighting a hostile, you just have to make MS checks every round. HiS only auto-fails if you are in LoS of a hostile. Third, monsters will always have at least 5% chance to hit you, regardless of what your AC is.
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10-26-2004, 05:13 PM | #18 | |||
Quintesson
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
Age: 43
Posts: 1,088
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As for a F/M, I just created one, set the XP to 8000000 and fully levelled up. The resulting HP was 133. Don't believe me? Again, try it and see. I assume from my earlier calculations that I was in the region of 1HP out for every couple of levels or so (since there is rounding applied with M/C characters). The end result has been the same however, since I assume a F/M gets a free 10hp+4hp at the start so the resulting 133HP turns out to be exactly how I calculated it. How did you arrive at 149? I wouldn't go as far as to say that my math is "gimped" . Quote:
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[Edited for spelling] [ 10-26-2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Jim ] |
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10-26-2004, 05:44 PM | #19 |
Elminster
Join Date: August 30, 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 39
Posts: 463
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I guess I don't entirely understand how they handled the HP in BG2, I'll have a look in my 2nd Edition PH when I get home, then I'll tell you if it's right or not.
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10-26-2004, 06:08 PM | #20 | |||||||||||
Dracolisk
Join Date: September 16, 2001
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 46
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No, I actually consider speed to be quite a valid asset. For a Tank at least, being the first person seen by an enemy is a definite advantage, and of course running away can always be a big help when you're low on HP, or when you're ambushed by Vampires and you haven't got the Amulet yet. Quote:
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But what is a valid point is that Haer'Dalis is not a PC Blade, and therefore his Resistances (and weapon specialization) cannot be counted as being part & parcel of the Blade. Quote:
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