Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[norompanlasolas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
America did NOT officially declare war on Osama, the Taliban, or El-Quada...President Bush declared a generic "war on terrorism". This allows them to circumvent the Geneva Convention, and keeping them in Cuba prevents them from seeking legal recourse in our own Judicial System (not for lack of trying on the parts of several human-rights groups).

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what? are you really saying this??? there is NO way you can "cirumvent" the geneva convention. thats what it is there for! no government can "circumvent it"!!! if it was that way every single government in the world would just declare a "generic" war on people we dont like and wear sandals, and then be allowed to "circumvent" it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
When you become concerned about the rights and treatment of these prisoners, take a moment to consider the rights of the 5000 people laying buried underneath the rubble of the World Trade Center. Think about the 500+ children whose parents never showed up to take them home from day care that day. Think of the spouses who kissed their loved ones goodbye that morning...not knowing that would be the last kiss they ever gave them. Think of the jackets that hang in silent tribute to the firefighters who will never wear them again in stations throughout the city. Think of the passengers on the planes,especially Flight 93. They were the only ones who knew what was really going on...and they made a decision to die fighting. There is no way to measure the lives saved by their sacrifice.
My point is this, the prisoners in Cuba are NOT the victims in this case...they are the instigators...and deserved to be treated as such.

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but it doesnt matter if they are the victims or not. OBVIOUSLY they arent. but by denying them their rights the us gov is doing exactly the same as them. even if they are instigators, they still deserve fair treatment. what al'quaida did was murderous, and i dont think anybody here thinks otherwise.

[fable]

I hope we can keep this friendly. Let's remember, no matter how badly a person's opinion disturbs you, here or in any thread, chances are they really aren't influencing national policy very much. And that includes me.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

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Originally Posted by norompanlasolas:

what? are you really saying this??? there is NO way you can "cirumvent" the geneva convention. thats what it is there for! no government can "circumvent it"!!! if it was that way every single government in the world would just declare a "generic" war on people we dont like and wear sandals, and then be allowed to "circumvent" it

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I'm merely stating a fact. Our President did not make an official declaration of war and is using that jargonic juggling to avoid declaring the prisoners as prisoners-of-war. I don't necessarily agee with it, but that's what they're doing.

Barry the Sprout,

Don't take my above Post tooo seriously. It was more of a "venting" session than anything. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] It's very difficult for me to maintain an objective view concerning the Sep 11 attack.

I really do agree that the prisoners deserve humane treatment, but I think the media is helping blow their "mistreatment" out of proportion. The other day, I heard one reporter mention that she could see prisoner's "mopping the sweat off their brow" because it was over 90 degrees that day. Sorry, but sweating in hot weather doesn't constitute "mistreatment" in my book for anybody. Gov't and military figures have repeatedly assured the media that the prisoners are recieving humane treatment in the form of 3 meals per day along with any necessary medical treatment. They are also making arrangements to allow the prisoners to observe their religious practices. But they are kept in shackles because - as mentioned before - they are still EXTREMELY dangerous.

Anyway, I respect the opposing views in this thread. I agree that America has a bad habit of following the rules when it suits them and ignoring them when it doesn't. And, as fable pointed out, the consequences for such an action can be VERY serious in the long run.

But, from a personal standpoint, I simply can't be objective in regards to the Sep 11 attack, so there's a good chance I won't Post here again. I will continue to follow the debate, and I may pop back in if I can add something constructive without flaming. Otherwise, I'll see all of you in some of the other threads.

[Durwyn]

Heh, who cares who started the war?

I mean really, they destoyed two monuments representing not only USA, not only freedom, but the World. Did you know that the space of occupation on WTC is like an averge American town in NJ, TX, NC, SC etc? How would you feel if your town got destroyed???

I live in NY and quite frankly I dont care who started the war, if they destroyed WTC as a defence then I dont care either, they still are to be hunted down and killed and torturned the whole nine yards [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[norompanlasolas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
I'm merely stating a fact. Our President did not make an official declaration of war and is using that jargonic juggling to avoid declaring the prisoners as prisoners-of-war. I don't necessarily agee with it, but that's what they're doing.

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well... i guess youre right.

regarding the flaming. i thought your posts were quite civil, and i apologise if mine seeemed a little harsh. i guess these issues are quite touchy and we all feel a very strongly about them. i hope you keep posting in this thread cerek the barbaric. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Grand-Ranger]

I only have a few things to say.

1) They are terrioist, they want every american DEAD. Thats all there is too it.

2) As Cerek said the media is really over doing it.

3) Human rights. Lets talk about that. Killing 5000 people and destorying a nations proud land mark isnt respecting human rights, now is it. And dont give me that "But there not the ones that did it" crap. They wanted it just as much as every other Al-Queda member.

4) They are NOT prisoners of war. They are detainies and are are being interogated, and giving them a 5 story mansion with a christmas dinner everyday wont provide any information.

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
But, from a personal standpoint, I simply can't be objective in regards to the Sep 11 attack, so there's a good chance I won't Post here again. I will continue to follow the debate, and I may pop back in if I can add something constructive without flaming. Otherwise, I'll see all of you in some of the other threads.

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Sorry, I think I slightly misunderstood where you were coming from. To both you and Durwyn, I understand it is hard to maintain objectivity on this issue. I think we should also remember that some people in Afghanistan might feel similarly...

But anyway, if you think it is best to keep out then do that. I hope to see you around elsewhere too [img]smile.gif[/img] . It would be nice to keep this one free of flaming or simply emotive arguments as those can leave a real sour taste. Whatever you think is best to be honest.

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grand-Ranger:
I only have a few things to say.

1) They are terrioist, they want every american DEAD. Thats all there is too it.

2) As Cerek said the media is really over doing it.

3) Human rights. Lets talk about that. Killing 5000 people and destorying a nations proud land mark isnt respecting human rights, now is it. And dont give me that "But there not the ones that did it" crap. They wanted it just as much as every other Al-Queda member.

4) They are NOT prisoners of war. They are detainies and are are being interogated, and giving them a 5 story mansion with a christmas dinner everyday wont provide any information.

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1.) Are you absolutely sure that was their objective? I seem to remember something about Palestine being in there, and Saudi Arabia. But you never know, they could be saying that to cover up the truth.

2.) Over here the media covered it strongly for about 2 days and now it has sunk back under the waves of stories about Prince Harry. I don't know where you are but I would love a media that persistant.

3.) Yep that was a human rights infringment. So are we saying that all people who commit human rights abuses are now open to have the same done to them? Because then we can take the Marines in Guatanamo and handcuff them to aeroplanes in flight (totally illegal and a little bit dangerous when you think about it), or leave them in 8ft
cages with no shade in Cuba, or put hoods over their heads needlessly to disorientate them.

4.) I am arguing for at least the bare minimum standard of treatment that the Geneva convention requires. Not 5 bedroom mansions. Don't know where you got that from to be honest.

Fable - I am sorry if I seemed to be attacking americans. I want a debate on this issue as I disagree with what is being done, I don't want to attack the american people. We had a lot of this kind of discussion in the war forum, its sad when it goes that way.

[Arvon]

First off they, the prisoners, are not members of the uniformed military. Therefore they are not entitled to the Genova convention of warfare. As far as mistreatment: they are being fed clean food, have clean clothes, sleep in lice free bed and have warm showers. And most likely for the first time in their lives.

[fable]

Do you have to be a member of a "uniformed military" to fall under the conditions of the Geneva convention? My understanding was that it covered all sorts of groups, including non-combatants, non-uniformed combatants, and even spies.