06-24-2003, 11:19 PM | #31 |
Zartan
Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
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Yeah Cerek, but that person who jumped on the front of the bus should get a fair hearing and be treated with dignity and respect, correct? If this person is a minor (anyone under the age of 18 and not emancipated by a court)we would try and find parents or relatives.
At least a lawyer and housing segregated from non-immigration criminals. Some teens in America are real thugs, and some poor haitian kid trying to reach family and opportunity should be not locked up with a bunch of thugs. Just because they are teenagers does not make them neccessarily mature or make it appropriate they would be housed with non-immigration offenders. We have laws on how to treat people who break the law, laws based on commonly agreed principles of what is a correct and fair way to determine if that particular somebody broke the law in the first place. We also have laws on how to treat people, ie. human and civil rights. We should apply our laws in a consistent, fair, and logical fashion or we build a system that is like a castle made of sand instead of a rock-hard pillar of truth.
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06-24-2003, 11:27 PM | #32 | |
Zartan
Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
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Quote:
If they enter the country without going through the proper channels, then by definition, they have entered illegally. [/QUOTE]So we can assume a persons legal status without proof? Innocent until proven guilty should apply, lest we deport a whole lot of "innocent" people. [/QUOTE]Innocent until proven guilty ONLY applies to trial, it does not apply to being arrested, or confined in jail and held until trial. If it did then any person holding that postion MUST demand the immedite release of Eric Scott Rudoff(sp?) and allow him to roam free until his trial. Or the release of all arrested persons until their trial comes up. Arrested and convicted are not the same thing. Breaking the law of the land is breaking the law of the land no if ands or buts. [/QUOTE]Your just mincing words here John and you missed my point. Ever hear of probable cause for arrest? Judges demand probable proof of guilt before issuing warrants, right? The burden of proof of guilt lies with the arrestor, not the arrestee from the moment a crime is committed. This way we keeep innocent people from being arrested with-out evidence.
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06-24-2003, 11:34 PM | #33 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
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Quote:
We do have laws abouttotreat the incarserated(sp?) and if amnemsty Int'l has any proof where the "HALE" is the investagtion? Where the "HALE" is AI's copy of the complant they filed with the authorities?
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06-24-2003, 11:43 PM | #34 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
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Quote:
If they enter the country without going through the proper channels, then by definition, they have entered illegally. [/QUOTE]So we can assume a persons legal status without proof? Innocent until proven guilty should apply, lest we deport a whole lot of "innocent" people. [/QUOTE]Innocent until proven guilty ONLY applies to trial, it does not apply to being arrested, or confined in jail and held until trial. If it did then any person holding that postion MUST demand the immedite release of Eric Scott Rudoff(sp?) and allow him to roam free until his trial. Or the release of all arrested persons until their trial comes up. Arrested and convicted are not the same thing. Breaking the law of the land is breaking the law of the land no if ands or buts. [/QUOTE]Your just mincing words here John and you missed my point. Ever hear of probable cause for arrest? Judges demand probable proof of guilt before issuing warrants, right? The burden of proof of guilt lies with the arrestor, not the arrestee from the moment a crime is committed. This way we keeep innocent people from being arrested with-out evidence. [/QUOTE]I'm not mincing words, ever hear of sombody being arrested for drunk driving when they are stopped by the police? Do you seriously think the police officer had to call up a judge and get an arrest warrant? What about a shoplifter? or anybody caught in the act of commiting a crime? Being on caught on U.S. soil illegaly is being caught in the act of commiting a crime! NO ARREST WARRANT is needed. The fact is guilty until proven innocent ONLY applies to the attitude to be taken at trial, the state MUST prove guilt inorder to be convicted not arrested. Ask the estemmed lawyer TL. [ 06-24-2003, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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06-24-2003, 11:44 PM | #35 | |
Zartan
Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
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http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?o...7EA89273D2B041
Here is a couple of different news article on the topic. This one is multi-faceted- http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0619-02.htm Quote:
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06-24-2003, 11:48 PM | #36 |
Zartan
Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
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John, that cop has probable cause because of poor driving and/or a breathalyzer. You can't arrest someone with-out cause.
I am sitting here innocent til proven guilty of every crime I haven't committed.
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06-25-2003, 12:02 AM | #37 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
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Quote:
As for you sitting there innocent of any crime unitl proven guilty. guess what so are the people sitting in jail until they are convicted in a trial by either a jury of their peers or a judge if they so elect to waive their right to a jury trial. Guess what else the police can arrest anybody they want to for what ever reason they want too. But the fact is to do so would be stupid and would leave the officer open for proscution and law suits.
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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06-25-2003, 01:36 AM | #38 | |||
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 3,257
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Quote:
Quote:
I've already addressed the issue of prisoners being shackled. I will readily concedet that strip searches and verbal abuse seem to be nothing more than an abuse of power. As for the solitary confinement, it is consistently mentioned as a punishment - not as a mandatory interment condition. In deference to the cases cited in Grojlach's opening article, I admit that the type of "misconduct" and the punishment warranted by that misconduct do seem to be grossly out of proportion in some case (not necessarily all..but at least some). Quote:
Another factor that seems to keep popping up is the age of these "children"...so far, I don't recall seeing an interview done or incident cited involving ANY "child" under the age of 16...an age in which many of these "children" would be considered adults in the countries they are fleeing from. I'm sure the 5,000 mentioned by AI does include a proportionate share of toddler's and young children...but the fact is, there has not been a single allegation of abuse cited involving any children this young. Just an observation on my part. Now...before many of you start believing I am a total ogre...I want to say that this article also contradicted the assumption I've held throughout this thread...that this situation involved the numerous aliens that try to enter the country illegally. From MY interpretation of the article provided by Chewbacca, it appears that these are people who ARE trying to "follow the proper protocol" for entering the country and being granted asylum. They aren't trying to "sneak across the border" or ride over in a boat. They are coming on airplanes and seeking the proper authorities once they disembark. So I have to stand corrected on the false assumption I've carried throughout this thread. Given these circumstances, I have to concur (at least to a degree ) with Chewbacca & Grojlach. It is a gross injustice to treat someone this way when they are trying to follow the proper protocol, but may just be unaware of what that protocol is.
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06-25-2003, 10:23 AM | #39 | |
Galvatron
Join Date: January 22, 2002
Location: california wine country
Age: 60
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Quote:
If they enter the country without going through the proper channels, then by definition, they have entered illegally. [/QUOTE]Nice way to take a quote out of context Cerek. I thought you were better then that.
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06-25-2003, 11:07 AM | #40 | |
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
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Quote:
If they enter the country without going through the proper channels, then by definition, they have entered illegally. [/QUOTE]Nice way to take a quote out of context Cerek. I thought you were better then that. [/QUOTE]I quoted nothing "out of context" Rokenn. I quoted the entirety of your response to Morgeraut. I did not include Morgeraut's comments a second time for two reasons. 1) My post came immediately after yours, so anyone wishing to see what "context" you made the comments in only had to scroll up one or two posts. 2) The mods are constantly reminding us to avoid "nested quotes". Since Morgeraut's comments were somewhat long and were in close proximity to my own post, I saw no reason to quote them again.
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