God doesn’t exist... Mathematically?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Eisenschwarz: quote: Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Math and god are one in the same. Neither exist in the physical world and both exist in the minds of humanity. 5 is a number.Numbers are what math is made of but it is called many diffrent things. Five,cinco,cinq,funf, but whatever you call it is is still 5. God is very similar, weather it is called Budda,Jesus,Allah , it is still the same thing. An expression of the divine fit to meet a persons needs. You cant go to the store and buy a "5" just like you cant go out and see a "god". Unless god pulls the trick he did in Monty Python and parts the clouds to speak no one can realy prove his existance. The same can be said for numbers. THeir relative value is determined by the significance humanity gives them. You can change five to Rammalammadingdong and make the symbol into this"#" but that doesnt change how many fingers are on your hand.Same thing with god. You can call it whatever and express it how ever but that doesnt change its basic nature.

Yes, A most pertinent Point.
hen it comes down to it, It is purely a matter of Faith,
Since Faith in a god presumes that which you might seek to prove, Thus since you presuppose the answer, you cannot prove that god exists.[/QUOTE]Ah, Dramnek Ulk. Haven't we tired of speaking about what we don't believe in by now? With the right argument you may 'prove' that the person you're arguing with doesn't exist. Is that person going to stop believing that they exist simply because you can string words together well enough? Or will they rely on what they know to be true, rely on what they persistently feel.

You see God gives love, peace, joy and food for the soul that you can never take away. At the end of the day, the best result you can achieve in an arguement is the person of faith not understanding why they believe what they do. They still will believe though. Just as you can "prove" the love of their life doesn't really love them - they will go on how they feel when they are receiving love.

So will that make you feel better? Does your worldview depend on others NOT believing in God? Will that remove a deep seated fear or something?

God exists. Love exists.

Prove that someone loves you.
Prove that you love someone.
Prove that God exists.

All these need Faith and Trust to be truly felt and known. A need of Faith and Trust does NOT equate nonexistence.

[Mellagar]

I have always seen God refer to as "He" "Him" or "His." What if God were a woman? You all better start being a lot nicer to your mothers from now on.
Let women rule the earth....that way I can get back to doing something else. Heh.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Mellagar: Man realizes that he thinks therefore he exists, he becomes his own creator by thought and God disappears in a poof of logic. See how easy that is? Here's a mathematical formula: God + Faith = Control of Masses / Number of believers * Those who might believe - Those who can think for themselves = Over two billion who think god exists and adhere to his imginary laws of virtue and life. And in decimal form equals the small handful who are capable thinking for themselves and do not need some prodigal son, or epic spiritual creation to tell them they need to eat, sleep, bath, speak, and live a certain way. Think about this for a moment everyone. You are living in the 21st century, yet you believe in something that was popular during a time when people drank from the same water camels bathed in. Also, when christianity became popular the literacy rate was about as low as Alabama's, but much worse. The notion of Jesus......here we have a carpenter....now his wife comes up him and says she is carrying God's baby? For those men who are married, how many of you would belive your wife if she told you this? Jesus, when he is much older goes from 12 to 35....he stays around prostitutes during the most hormonal period in his life and you want to tell me he wasn't doing anything? IT GET'S PRETTY DULL IN THE DESERT...NOT A LOT TO DO. Religion was a way to control the rioting masses over 2,000 years ago. But if people need reassurance that the world is wonderful and there is a special place for them all, then I suppose religion will stay, which I have no doubts that it will. One last thing. God created the universe, and everything. What created god? Occam's Razor says that usually and most likely the simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Could it be that someone, like Homer and the Illiad, created one of the greatest mythical stories in a time when people were illiterate and wanted something to believe in, were told this grand story by writers who saw a way of controlling the masses. Perhaps the writers of the Bible were the first fantasy book cult, just like the Tolkein cults out there. How many of you believe Frodo is the massiah, and Gandalf is Moses? Because that's about how much sense it all makes. As I have heard it said before: "Religion is poison."

"Man realizes that he thinks therefore he exists, he becomes his own creator by thought and God disappears in a poof of logic." What an unbelievable stretch of logic dear sir. I suppose when the dog becomes aware of it's tail that it becomes it's own creator too.

How you've equated self awareness with self-creation is beyond me.

Secondly, regarding Occams Razor, it's a general rule of thumb, not a hard and fast rule. However, that given, what is simpler? That the Universes atoms are all holding together out of sheer chance, or that the energy of a creative mind is holding it together? That the universe could just one day, just plop into existence, from nothing, or that a creative mind was behind it. That human intelligence just haphazardly developped by pure stroke of luck and one in ten kazillion to one odds, or that a creative mind developed it?

It would seem that what 'the simplest answer is' is extremely subjective, so one should be careful about applying Occams Razor to GODs existence.

To get an insight into the mind of God, all one need to is pick up a paintbrush and paint a tree on an Autumn afternoon.

Then go and look at the intricacy of the leafs pattern, then move back and see the beauty in the shape of the tree itself.

God is an artist.

As for who created God, the belief in an eternal creator is just that. That he has eternally existed. We don't suggest that God had a begining. It is people who don't believe in him who suggest that he has to have a beginning.

Incomprehensible? A being without a beginning is outside human experience! Everything has to have a beginning!

Exactly. Humans cannot create outside their experience. Humans cannot fully comprehend, much less create the concept of an eternal God.

[ 11-10-2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

I'd argue that both exist outside the human mind. Do humans invent equations or discover them? No one can prove anything doesn't exist. To do so you'd have to experience all there is to experience throughout history. ALl you can ever say is "I've never experienced this" or "I've experienced that". Well, I perpetually experience God. That is my reality, my truth and my experience and no-one short of living my life can prove me wrong. Neither is it for me to prove God exists to anyone. God is not an ideology or rationale that has to be defended. He is not a theory that must be proven. He simply IS. We have, I have, the choice to reject him, ignore him, seek him out, attempt to rationalise and understand him or simply love him as he loves me

I am not arguing gods existance or non existance. I am simply saying that without humanity would there be god or math? When is the last time you saw a fish doing algebra or a moose going to church? If there were no humanity to put names on things and quantify them would it even be important in the first place?

[Vaskez]

This might be a bit late into the discussion, but if anyone cares, I'll add my views....
I've also had long and hard-fought discussions about this topic and realise that noone ever budges in their point of view, but what the hell.

Now this is just my opinion, so no one take offense...
To me it seems stupid how people cannot see that there is a God and I don't care whether you call Him Allah or God or whatever. As people have said, can you ask atoms : "did you create yourself?" no you cannot. Yes, I believe in evolution and the big bang, I believe they were tools of God. But someone must have created the atoms to make the big bang right? Yes God. And who created God? God has always existed. He who has existed forever need not be created as creation implies they must have a beginning and an end. That's the only logical explanation in my mind. And that's not taking into account the hundreds of thousands of people who've studied this topic for their whole lives and come to the conclusion that they can't explain life except if God exists. Einstein was one of them for example.
Also they've calculated that the chance of the correct chemicals coming together of their own accord to create life is 1 in 100 billion billion billion (and about 5 more billions). I've heard the argument that in an infinite universe, everything happens, but it's a bit far fetched for me. I've also heard the argument that energy cannot be created nor destroyed therefore there is no need for a God. But is energy intelligent? No. There must be some intelligent being out there who need not have been created because He has always existed. Just because puny, miserable humans cannot comprehend that, they assume it can't be true? I laugh at that...

[Vaskez]

In addition to my post above, I've also heard this argument...

The feeling of hunger INDICATES the existance of such a thing as food...the hope for gratification. If there was no food, we would not be hungry as there would be no sense in feeling something that will never be satisfied and has no chance of being satisfied.

The feeling of sex drive INDICATES the existance of sexual gratification. Same argument...

The feeling of a need for God, a need to explain where we come from must indicate that there is an answer out there. Why do billions of people feel they need a God? Wouldn't it be much simpler to just say, the atoms created themselves then muslims wouldn't have to bother praying 5 times a day, Christiands wouldn't have to bother going to church or praying. But no, people have a need, an internal inexplicable want and need for there to be a God...why?

[ 11-10-2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Vaskez: In addition to my post above, I've also heard this argument... The feeling of hunger INDICATES the existance of such a thing as food...the hope for gratification. If there was no food, we would not be hungry as there would be no sense in feeling something that will never be satisfied and has no chance of being satisfied. The feeling of sex drive INDICATES the existance of sexual gratification. Same argument... The feeling of a need for God, a need to explain where we come from must indicate that there is an answer out there. Why do billions of people feel they need a God? Wouldn't it be much simpler to just say, the atoms created themselves then muslims wouldn't have to bother praying 5 times a day, Christiands wouldn't have to bother going to church or praying. But no, people have a need, an internal inexplicable want and need for there to be a God...why?

This is a very good argument and something I hadn't considered.

Thankyou Vaskez. Thankyou for posting this. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by whacky: You really want to believe people who come up with theories that are eroded by the passage of time, overthrown, rejected, revamped or even forgotton, nah i dont think you do. Im much better off believing in God, you should never underestimate the power of faith [img]smile.gif[/img] And you know to make God God he would have to be something a lot more special than us, people just cant say that he doesnt exist mathmatically, surely he is not included in the bounds he made for us, and do we even know what is his manifestation ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

The bible itself has been interpreted many times also my friend. The current version you read, being King James, is only an interpretation of the origanal scripters. Religion started as a way to answer all our questions and fears of the unknown and fear of death. There is know god or budda or any other "manifestation" of god. There is only PROVEN facts of logic. There is no logic in faith or fantasy or excuses for our human instincts.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by LordKathen: 1.The bible itself has been interpreted many times also my friend. The current version you read, being King James, is only an interpretation of the origanal scripters. 2.Religion started as a way to answer all our questions and fears of the unknown and fear of death. 3.There is know god or budda or any other "manifestation" of god. 4.There is only PROVEN facts of logic. There is no logic in faith or fantasy or excuses for our human instincts.

1.I think you mean TRANSLATED, not interpreted. THe Bible is often translated yes, because language changes. Would you prefer it that is remained only in the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic so that only scholars could read it? If it's in a contemporary language any literate person speaking that language can read it. Power to the people.

2. You would know this of course, because you were there when religion started, and you are not relying on faith that the historical information you have received from others is true. Oh hang on, you don't believe in faith....

3.I think you meant "There is no God or Buddha". Well I can assure you Siddartha was a historical figure. Buddhists today are divided over whether he passed on into Nirvana (doesn't exist anymore) or chose to stick around and guide others to Nirvana (exists in Spirit) or is actually reincarnated as the Dalai Lama. (Exists here and now)

As for whether God exists, As I said, all you can state is that you have not experienced him. I have no doubt you have not. I however have. He is very real to me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

4. To love one must have trust. One must have faith in the other person. Are you suggesting that love does not exist? Are you suggesting love is not logical?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: I'd argue that both exist outside the human mind. Do humans invent equations or discover them? No one can prove anything doesn't exist. To do so you'd have to experience all there is to experience throughout history. ALl you can ever say is "I've never experienced this" or "I've experienced that". Well, I perpetually experience God. That is my reality, my truth and my experience and no-one short of living my life can prove me wrong. Neither is it for me to prove God exists to anyone. God is not an ideology or rationale that has to be defended. He is not a theory that must be proven. He simply IS. We have, I have, the choice to reject him, ignore him, seek him out, attempt to rationalise and understand him or simply love him as he loves me

I am not arguing gods existance or non existance. I am simply saying that without humanity would there be god or math? When is the last time you saw a fish doing algebra or a moose going to church? If there were no humanity to put names on things and quantify them would it even be important in the first place?[/QUOTE]I think the answer Hunter is found in time. WIthout humans would there be hours minutes and seconds? No. Would time ceaselessly roll on? You bet.

THe very fact that humans discover that which is previously unknown, proves time and again, that there is much beyond our experience. Just because something is not known or discovered yet, does not mean it will remain undiscovered forever.

The examples of subsonic soundwaves, UV light, viruses and bacteria, radar etc etc etc. Did they suddenly plop into existence once we discovered them, or were they always there, waiting to be discovered?

With my belief in God, comes the idea that humans are not the determining factor in existence. That 'reality' is not limited to human perception.