It's International Conscientious Objectors' Day!

[Kaltia]

Originally posted by khazadman: So in some ways pacifism is not just cowardice, it's stupidity.

And in some ways Khazadman didn't pay attention in the "Basic manners and common courtesy" class [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sigmar, what your grandfather did was great and was a prime example of what I was talking about.

On the other hand, a pacifist who refuses to lift a finger to defend his wife, children or countrymen......(in my opinion) is abrogating his responsibilities...If you bring a life into this world, it is your job to protect it from all harm and when you take a wife (or significant other) you have the same responsibility...not just harm that allows you to be a pacifist.

Melusine, (not trying to pick on you here) but would you respect your significant other if he/she were to sit by and watch you being tortured or murdered but did not act due to his/her pacifistic beliefs?

Or maybe Im just an antiquated old fossil who believes a man (or woman) should protect those who look to him for their welfare.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by MagiK: On the other hand, a pacifist who refuses to lift a finger to defend his wife, children or countrymen......(in my opinion) is abrogating his responsibilities...

That's nonsense, you're confusing pacifism with cruelty and you know it's a flawed argument. If someone doesn't defend his/her loved ones, it has nothing to do with pacifism but with heartlessness.

Melusine, (not trying to pick on you here) but would you respect your significant other if he/she were to sit by and watch you being tortured or murdered but did not act due to his/her pacifistic beliefs?

I would thank you not to make such horrible speculations about me MagiK. Maybe you gain some perverse pleasure from such conjectures but personally I find them painful and respectless.

First, I've never said I'm a pacifist, that my boyfriend is a pacifist, or that I believe in pacifism. Second, you have no idea what I may or may not have been through in the past and your post was therefore potentially callous and hurtful. Third, in fact I HAVE told my boyfriend that if we ever came to be in a situation where I was attacked or anything, I would HATE HIM if he tried to defend me when the odds were against him. I have asked him to FIRST call for help on his phone, then see if he could help me without risking his life. I do NOT speak lightly of these things, but I'd rather something happened to me than lose him to some stupid fight. Fourth, he responded that he could never do that and he WOULD in fact do everything to defend me, as ANY NORMAL PERSON WOULD, pacifist or not.
There's a huge difference you're obviously not aware of between defending a loved one from immediate danger or going out shooting other soldiers who have done nothing wrong and have loved ones at home themselves.

Mel...im confused here. First, I was not wishing any harm on you. There is no need to become paranoid about my desires for your personal safety. I really really wish you nothing but love, joy and happiness for all of your days....seriously.

Second. Pacifism...

Main Entry: pac·i·fism
Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
Date: 1902
1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance


Entry number 2 shows that a "pacifist" would not in fact put up any resistance. So I guess what we are talking about here would be..situational pacifism? Where it is ok to wreak violence if it concerns your own loved ones...but not if it concerns..someoen elses (pehaps a neighbors) loved ones?

It would appear to me that situational pacifism is akin to situational ethics.

Edit: I only asked you how you would feel... I did not accuse you of being a pacifist, nor did I make any asseriton on the behalf of your real boy friend..I was asking a hypothetical question.

[ 05-19-2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Melusine]

Then why ask me if you don't even know my personal take on pacifism? Why not make it a general question? Why the need to paint such a horrible situation for a hypothetical question that is completely irrelevant?
Did you for one second think that ANYONE here would think it OK if their loved ones stood by and watched them attacked, murdered, tortured? Surely not. Then why ask?

Not that it's any of your bloody business, but I HAVE been in a situation where I would desperately have wanted my boyfriend to defend me, only he was hundreds of miles away. Don't give me any 'I'm sorry for what happened's, just think about whether you really need to ask dumb questions next time.

Originally posted by Melusine: Then why ask me if you don't even know my personal take on pacifism? Why not make it a general question? Why the need to paint such a horrible situation for a hypothetical question that is completely irrelevant? Did you for one second think that ANYONE here would think it OK if their loved ones stood by and watched them attacked, murdered, tortured? Surely not. Then why ask? I thought that because I see people claiming to be pacifists...and I was curious to know if they "really" were pacifist or just situational pacifists. so in short, the answer was "I was curious" which is basicly the same reason anyone anywhere asks a question. Not that it's any of your bloody business, but I HAVE been in a situation where I would desperately have wanted my boyfriend to defend me, only he was hundreds of miles away. Don't give me any 'I'm sorry for what happened's, just think about whether you really need to ask dumb questions next time. Well wether you care or not, I am sorry you had a bad deal. Now back to the issue at hand...you don't really need to take a hypothetical situation quite so personally....I asked YOU the hypothetical because you had taken a position in your previous post...so I asked you to expand your position and for further insight to your thoughts...if you do not wish to share them thats fine...but no need to get all PO'd. I apologize for upsetting you.

[Donut]

Donut and Lanesra - the Pacifist Brothers!

ROTFLMFFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hows your hand Bro'?

[Chewbacca]

Off topic from conscientious objection but on the topic of pacifism:

What is a truer testimony of character, the ability to overcome one's own violent reactions, or the ability to give into instinct without a thought or emotion?

Believe me it takes strength and faith to explore that darkness of ones own fear and violent tendencies. If one lacks the wisdom of self-understanding they may fall prey to the notion that becoming a pacifist means a sudden loss of violence within themselves. Truly it take a determined effort to transform the communal instinct of fear that is the root of violence into the fruits of peace. True pacificm should be a rare thing indeed in the world.

For example, when faced with a sudden violent situation, like an armed home invasion, it is the first instinct to be afraid and losing this instinct does not happen without years of determined effort.

The key of understanding here is the perpetuators of violence are acting on the same fear they seek to instill in their victims.

A pacifist like me in this situation may seek the inner peace of spirit, a venerable faith in God to see them through the darkness that is fear and the valley of death. So by refusing to give into the fear and accepting the spirituality of peace in the heart, a pacifist can strip an aggressor of the only advantage his violent way provides. A mind clear of fear can then choose correct actions to remedy the situation or take no action at all until the wave of violence passes.

Chewy that was really great...I do think in the end though that pacifism would lead to extinction. Only when ALL creatures, human and animal cease to endanger those around them can pacifism actually be considered a survival oriented strategy....

Im not sure I know anyone who doesnt exhibit some form of restraint...I don't bash my neighbors head in for mowing his lawn at 7:00am on Sunday.....or at least....not yet

[Timber Loftis]

Chewbacca, I appreciate lots of your post above. However, there is also finding inner peace and not using violence because you want to or can, but because justice demands it. The home invader in my home is going to get attacked. I don't have a gun (yet), but I will go after him if he does not retreat. I know of 3 households where everyone was murdered by a home invader when I lived in Syracuse. Justice demands I not let that happen to me. It ain't about fear of death (else I would do nothing) and it ain't about hate or anger -- it's about the moral imperative to ensure the invader not be allowed to effect an injustice on another, be it me or someone else.