The OFFICIAL Ironworks Football World Cup Thread--Part IV

[Kakero]

the referee and his assistant must be laughing all the way to the bank now. and perhaps hiddink congratulate his team doctor again for giving his player some " good stuff ".

I won't be suprise if South Korea win the world cup now.

[Grojlach]

Look, there will always be mistakes made by referees... Every single country in the world has been "robbed blind" at one point in their history. The decisions about those two goals are open for discussion - like happens with *every* disallowed goal. But I think it depends on your point of view in the first place whether those goals were correctly disallowed or not. You support Spain yourself, so they have "robbed your country blind". Someone who supports South Korea will state that they were disallowed justly. Though the truth will probably in the middle, I'm certain that it's almost impossible for a referee to be an obviously biased whistler when the entire world is watching along over his shoulder to criticise every decision he makes. But a referee is also just a human who is able to make mistakes. [img]smile.gif[/img]
But that South Korea is only winning from Portugal, Spain and Italy because of a conspiracy from the FIFA against these countries is complete and utter b.s. in my opinion. But isn't that always when your favourite team loses? Don't people always try to find a scapegoat? It's always a player who misses a penalty or the referee or the trainer who gets blamed for the defeat, and hardly ever because the other party was just better, smarter or luckier. I mean, if that was my country being kicked out against South Korea, I'd probably react in the same way as you do now, norompanlasolas. Doesn't mean I'm right about it then.

[ 06-22-2002, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Kakero: the referee and his assistant must be laughing all the way to the bank now. and perhaps hiddink congratulate his team doctor again for giving his player some " good stuff ".

...
That's what I meant with being a bad loser. Geez. So now Spain was beaten because the South Korea players were using drugs? Where do you get this utter nonsense?
Please provide some proof next time or at least *think* before you post more useless accusations. I mean, you don't want me to say "Guess Spain lost this time because they forgot the "good stuff" back in the hotel by accident", do you? Cause that makes about as much sense as what you just said. [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

[ 06-22-2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

well, this subjectiveness isn't going to help anybody [img]smile.gif[/img]

there may be corruption or abuse, there may not. We have no evidence of such, so I won't even acknowledge such statements [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just ewnjoy the few games we have left [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Memnoch]

MODERATOR MODE OFF here...

I know we're all passionate about sport and football, so let me start by saying that I ADMIRE the passion everyone is showing. Passion for sports is GOOD! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I'm passionate about sports as well, so this will sound a bit strong for some. I'm NOT attacking anyone here personally. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's all fine and good to bleat about poor refereeing etc, especially if it costs your team a victory. The refereeing has not been perfect, but everyone who loses, and has a goal disallowed, is jumping on the bandwagon and using refereeing and conspiracy as an excuse rather than looking back at the team and seeing how badly they played anyway.

Look at England - they took their defeat with good grace at least.

I'm upset that Spain went out as well (at least England went out too ). But it looks like a very bad case of sour grapes to be whinging about it immediately after a loss, and to whinge about conspiracy when there is no evidence. It's called being SORE LOSERS and being GRACELESS in DEFEAT.

It's insulting to the Korean attitude and commitment to victory to claim that they are getting an easy passage through. They had to beat three very tough teams to advance (Portugal, Italy, and Spain), and they did it well. None of the so-called superstars from these teams stood up to be counted when it mattered. Let's analyze:

1. Portugal displayed APPALLING discipline in the game vs. Korea. They just got pissed off with how committed the Koreans were, and paid the penalty. Joao Pinto should be banned from sport for a YEAR if he is found guilty of punching the referee - if you did that on the street you would be charged with assault. They DESERVED to lose.

2. Italy were on the wrong end of some poor decisions, but with the amount of talent they had why on earth did they have to wait till the VERY LAST MINUTE to secure victory? Why did Trap not push his players forward, bring Inzaghi or Montella on. The referee is the scapegoat because he made mistakes - but the BIGGEST mistake made is that Trappatoni decided to play catanaccio (cat and mouse) yet again with a 1-0 lead. Pulling del Piero off after 60 mins was unbelievable and showed DISRESPECT to the Koreans, and they got caught in the end.

3. Spain had two goals disallowed - I didn't see the game so I can't comment on whether they were fair or not. But Spain, with the bevy of talent they had, should have created more opportunities. Obviously the salary disparity and the talent disparity does not match up.

But all this bollocks about conspiracy is just unbelievable - what's happening in Italy now is just beyond a joke. Catanaccio caused them to lose - they should have put themselves into a position where they didn't need to rely on a correct refereeing decision - they supposedly have the best players in the world. Even governments etc are getting into the act which is disgraceful - what agendas are THEY pushing, I wonder? [img]graemlins/showoff.gif[/img]

Take a lesson from England and have GRACE in DEFEAT. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Look, there will always be mistakes made by referees... Every single country in the world has been "robbed blind" at one point in their history. The decisions about those two goals are open for discussion - like happens with *every* disallowed goal. But I think it depends on your point of view in the first place whether those goals were correctly disallowed or not. You support Spain yourself, so they have "robbed your country blind". Someone who supports South Korea will state that they were disallowed justly. Though the truth will probably in the middle, I'm certain that it's almost impossible for a referee to be an obviously biased whistler when the entire world is watching along over his shoulder to criticise every decision he makes. But a referee is also just a human who is able to make mistakes. [img]smile.gif[/img] But that South Korea is only winning from Portugal, Spain and Italy because of a conspiracy from the FIFA against these countries is complete and utter b.s. in my opinion. But isn't that always when your favourite team loses? Don't people always try to find a scapegoat? It's always a player who misses a penalty or the referee or the trainer who gets blamed for the defeat, and hardly ever because the other party was just better, smarter or luckier.

i know groj. referees make mistakes. i have seen lots of football and played it as well (professionally up until 2 years ago). but i also can recognize that when mistakes happen too often, and all favoring the same team, something strange is happening. im not saying there is a conspiracy by fifa, but it can come very close to selecting influentiable referees, and even ones that wouldnt mind taking bribes (yes, it can happen, even in the WC).

there is no denying that fifa is corrupt as hell right now, and that blatter is at the head of it. so, how can you expect fair play and no foul play in the world cup when the organism directing it is corrupt? the decisions have been doubtful at best in a high number of games involving the same teams. this is going to have some serious repercusions, given that lots of federations feel cheated, and rightly so.

[Memnoch]

This is called being graceful in defeat. [img]smile.gif[/img]

After Italy lost to South Korea, the South Korean striker who scored against Italy was fired by his Italian club team Perugia, an act that Dr Szreter called "extraordinarily infantile".

The English, with their lower expectations, have so far been graceful in defeat, consoling themselves with the thought "we did not do badly," and, with such a young side, hoping that in four years time, England will be as mature and formidable a team as Brazil is now.

---from the Guardian

[Grojlach]

Time will tell, norompanlasolas, but for now, there's no evidence whatsoever and I have to agree with Memnoch's post. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Memnoch: This is called being graceful in defeat. [img]smile.gif[/img] After Italy lost to South Korea, the South Korean striker who scored against Italy was fired by his Italian club team Perugia, an act that Dr Szreter called "extraordinarily infantile". The English, with their lower expectations, have so far been graceful in defeat, consoling themselves with the thought "we did not do badly," and, with such a young side, hoping that in four years time, England will be as mature and formidable a team as Brazil is now. ---from the Guardian

well, i believe that you play to win, and that anything else is a failure. lowering expectations will get you nowhere, not now, and not in 4 years time. thats why they havent won the WC since '66.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Grojlach: But isn't that always when your favourite team loses? Don't people always try to find a scapegoat? It's always a player who misses a penalty or the referee or the trainer who gets blamed for the defeat, and hardly ever because the other party was just better, smarter or luckier.

Absolutely right, Grojlach. Some of the teams that lost (France, Argentina, Italy, Uruguay, Portugal and my beloved Spain) need to look at themselves and their game plans, and whether they thought South Korea/Senegal/Turkey/USA would be an easy game.

I also find this "blame/find a scapegoat" culture disgusting. If you see Australia's Wallabies (rugby team) lose, you won't hear ANY of them blame each other, the referee (no matter how bad he was), the weather, or any of that shit for the loss. Take the loss like a man and be graceful in defeat.

Here's an article that to me perfectly explains why some of these more fancied (overrated?) teams are going out early this World Cup:


The World Cup does funny things to people. Take the reaction in some quarters to the departure of so many favourites from the tournament. If Manchester United and Arsenal were both beaten by lower-division opponents in the third round of the FA Cup would the pundits fret that we would not see more of Henry and Beckham in the latter stages?
Of course not. In domestic football such upsets are taken as part of the romance of the Cup, and if Rochdale and Carlisle can have romance so, surely, can Denmark and Sweden.

Apparently not. The keening for the fallen greats that filled the sports sections at the weekend was loud enough to rattle the windows. Their departure has, it seems, drawn the magic from the competition and left us all bereft.

Who would you rather see in the quarter-finals of the World Cup: Rui Costa or Landon Donovan? The answer, you might think, is that it depends where your sympathies lie. Doubtless there are people who are pleased that Raul and Gaizka Mendieta will, in the parlance of the star-worshippers, "grace the quarter-finals with their presence" instead of Kevin Kilbane and Mark Kinsella, but I doubt you will find many of them in Dublin.

It's simply a question of perspective. Belgium, routinely used as the epitome of dour northern European-ness by English pundits keen to show why it would have been better for us all if Argentina had progressed, actually scored three times as many goals in the group stage as England. One man's efficient result-grabbers are another's dull workhorses.

The notion that the progress of the giants guarantees quality, meanwhile, is patent nonsense. France 98 was as shock-free as an episode of The Waltons and I know which tournament I'd rather be watching.

As for the departing stars, with the exception of the injured Zinedine Zidane, it's hard to have much sympathy or regret. They are out because they didn't do what they are paid to do - dominate games. It is hard to imagine, for example, that Diego Maradona, a man who cared to the point of mania, would have let Argentina play in the half-baked way they did for the first hour against England.

Franz Beckenbauer (as president of Bayern Munich, hardly neutral on the subject) announced at the weekend that the failure of so many great players to influence games was down to tiredness. The Kaiser was concerned about the number of matches they are required to play, though the enervating effect of celebrity may have taken just as much of a toll on some of them.

Footballers nowadays are famous in a way that would have been unimaginable even a decade ago. They are as feted as film stars, and film stars tend to take unkindly to having their scenes stolen by ratty-haired unknowns with spotty cheeks. Film stars, of course, have stuntmen and body doubles to do the rough stuff for them. Footballers, for the moment at least, don't.

If Luis Figo spent Portugal's brief spell in the competition looking like he was disappointed not to be playing on an oil tanker with a silver ball, a funky soundtrack and Eric Cantona as the referee, you can take his point.

How much more fun it must be to do a few flicks and volleys for the cameras than to be continually buffeted and harassed by a load of sharp-elbowed Americans and Koreans who have never attended a movie premier in their lives.

Anyone who had achieved the wealth these men have done would begin to wonder what they were doing running about with Stig Tofting and Thomas Gravesen booting their ankles. To do otherwise would reflect a dullness of the imagination - like those people who win a rollover jackpot on the lottery and then declare that they intend to go on working in the dry-cleaning business.

Johan Cruyff, a trendsetter in so many ways, signalled as much when he refused to travel to Argentina for the 1978 World Cup. In Cruyff's coldly logical assessment the financial rewards simply weren't worth the risk to his health and the disruption it caused to his family. After this World Cup I suspect other stars, urged on by their clubs, may follow his lead.

It will be disappointing when they do, but better than watching players, like ageing rock stars on one final tour, simply going through motions. Many of the outsiders - Senegal stand out - and some of the established performers - Ronaldo, for example - play like they love football. Unfortunately many of those who have gone played like they loved only themselves.