ONE question to all the atheists out there.... - Page 8

NiceWorg · 01-22-2003, 08:08 AM

The fact that God wouldn´t exist can never be proved wrong. There is no method to do it, we just have to trust our own judging that god doesn´t exist because evolution has no place for something like God. The theory of evolution gives answers to the questions you might have about the little miracles of life. It cannot explain all the things, but then what could? Therefore I think being atheist is good for your mental health & sense of reality.

Sorry I didn´t have time and patience to read through all answers, in case someone has pointed this out already.

EDIT: Check below for original.

[ 01-22-2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: NiceWorg ]

Irongrinder · 01-22-2003, 08:12 AM

About point 3
It is also about believe. For the leaders who start the war not, for them the reason is money, power and who knows what else. But for the people fighting the fight (the suicide bombers, the people hating each other next door in Northern Ireland) the reason is in many cases religion and not money, because they hardly see anything from the money but believe in what their leaders tell them about their believe and the opponents believe.

So without their believing who would fight for the leaders?

[ 01-22-2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Irongrinder ]

Vaskez · 01-22-2003, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NiceWorg:
The fact that God wouldn´t exist can never be proved wrong. There is no method to do it, we just have to trust our own judging that god doesn´t exist because evolution has no place for higher powers. Therefore I think being atheist is good for your mental health & sense of reality.

Sorry I didn´t have time and patience to read through all answers, in case someone has pointed this out already.

Just read my post above. That tries to summarise what people have argued and my counter-arguments. Kinda summary.

The Hunter of Jahanna · 01-22-2003, 08:14 AM

Quote:

They're not versions, they're TRANSLATIONS. "More correct" means "most accurate translation" as regarded by the majority of scholars worldwide. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic. What are people supposed to do? Learn those three languages to read Gods word?

Translation, version, its all greek to me.

Realy though,this is what I mean. If some translations are more correct , then there are some translations that are less correct. What happens if you get the one that translates things wrong?? Also , this is just a thought because I realy dont know, wouldnt god expect his followers to learn the language of the bible? If he said things a certain way then wouldnt he expect people to make the sacrafice to learn them the way he intended? Wouldnt those languages be considered "holy" since it is how god communicated with his followers in the old testament.

Vaskez · 01-22-2003, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna:

quote:
They're not versions, they're TRANSLATIONS. "More correct" means "most accurate translation" as regarded by the majority of scholars worldwide. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic. What are people supposed to do? Learn those three languages to read Gods word?

Translation, version, its all greek to me. Realy though,this is what I mean. If some translations are more correct , then there are some translations that are less correct. What happens if you get the one that translates things wrong?? Also , this is just a thought because I realy dont know, wouldnt god expect his followers to learn the language of the bible? If he said things a certain way then wouldnt he expect people to make the sacrafice to learn them the way he intended? Wouldnt those languages be considered "holy" since it is how god communicated with his followers in the old testament.[/QUOTE]Language is just a tool. No one cares what language you think it in. The Bible also says in the New Testament (where they contradict, the New Testament is always valid) that the disciples learned many tongues to tell everyone about God.

Everyone returning to the thread, please read my attempted summary and thoughts a few posts up. It's the bloody long post

[ 01-22-2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

Grungi · 01-22-2003, 08:22 AM

forget humans, what about amoeba? they have feelings too [img]tongue.gif[/img] (well maybe not but who knows what animals, bacteria, etc believe in) why are they not mentioned? whats their purpose on the planet? to get into heaven? no its not, their purpose is to procreate, eat and die and so on. Why are people so egocentric that they think everything is about the human race, the human race is insignificant we are one tiny miniscule part in this galaxy let alone the universe, theres probably billions of lifeforms out there, all who have different beliefs. Using the human race as the only example without consideration of other lifeforms i find to be not taking the bigger picture.

why does there HAVE to be a purpose for me on this planet? i dont feel like asking or answering that question, far as im concerned im here, why care why? im here, im going to enjoy my life and then hopefully if my personal beliefs come true im going to have an afterlife of sun, sea, sand, sex, etc [img]smile.gif[/img] i dont even care "why am i here" a dog doesnt question why its on the planet, a human does, that says to me a human is more evolved and more intelligent but also becaue they are more complex they need questions like that to stop them going insane, a dog has no such troubles, what that DOESNT mean is that there "has" to be a reason for everything.

one thing i noticed that you did not address and seem to be avoiding is the original point about getting into heaven, id like to know your responses to that.

plenty of religions DO put forward war as a good thing, just not mainstream ones. and in the past almost all religions considered war a good thing, its just changed in recent centuries. Didnt want to mention it again, but look at the crusades, knight templars etc are a religious order, fighting for god etc. But its all in the past now and not relevant today, just dont make a statement that all religions arent about war, cos thats untrue, some are and some were.

You dont think 1 billion people can be misled!?!?! are you mad [img]tongue.gif[/img] , were HUMAN we believe way too much, if tv told people something you'd get a billion people believing it quickly if it sounded plausible enough, in the middle ages almost every person on the planet KNEW the world was flat, so erm yes 1 billion people can easily be misled or wrong.

as for need, well need is need, but why it should come from a higher power i still dont see your argument at all, need comes from instinct, whether that instinct was created by a higher power or just by a simple reaction to your environment, well its far more plausible that its environment and not a higher power. Your trying to talk about things in terms of whats plausible and that just doesnt work, everyone can prove either way whats plausible or not , and thats an unwinnable argument.

But i do still want to know exactly why god would let saddam hussein in if he repented but wouldnt let mother teresa in if she professed not to believe in him? If i know anything about god he'd let mother teresa in and saddam would find himself with a severly scorched backside.

Grungi · 01-22-2003, 08:24 AM

evolution does allow a place for god, theres plenty of christians who believe in evolution too, afterall its easy to just say god designed evolution and has an ultimate purpose that were evolving into.

thats the "great" thing about religion, you can get it to mean anything you like.

Vaskez · 01-22-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Melusine:
Vask, people can force themselves to believe lots of things, which they will actually truly start to believe in the end. Now, if someone started to believe in God because (s)he's "got nothing to lose and everything to gain" wouldn't that 1. be one of the worst reasons to start believing 2. be a completely hypocritical and unreal faith? I've always thought people believed in God because they truly experienced his presence at some point in their life. That to me is the way you can truly become a believer. I absolutely agree that atheists have just as little or as much proof about the existence of God. But it's a big step to go from accepting that there's no proof God DOESN'T exist to actually truly believing in him. I don't think that's the way to go about it. You don't decide to become religious, all you can do is open yourself to the possibility and faith is something that will have to come from the heart, not the head.

Mel, my point was that if you can find no other reason to believe then think about this...* insert first post in thread*

Irongrinder · 01-22-2003, 08:28 AM

Vaskez, about point 6: Why is this? Because people always need something to hang on to, that's in our nature. I myself keep options open, but need proof to believe in it. It would be interesting to know why we are here and if there really is a god, but in my opinion I don't see what that would help me live my life right.

Epona · 01-22-2003, 08:33 AM

Very interesting thread!

I'm an atheist. I simply don't believe. There is no way I could force myself to, and it would feel as though I was compromising my own beliefs to try. If it turns out that I'm wrong, there won't be a lot I can do about it.

I do find that it is an interesting question about the identity of God/Allah/multitudinous ancient gods. I have many muslim friends, and when they talk about god to someone English, they use the word God. When they talk to other non-English muslims, they use the word Allah. They are clear that the Christian and Muslim gods are one and the same, and use the appropriate term depending on who they are speaking to. The main difference is that muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, but another prophet, albeit a less important one than Mohammed.

Another interesting point, neo-druidism was originally a break-away from Christianity. They believed in God, but came to the conclusion that he was one of many ancient Gods (I believe they decided that he was most likely to have been worshipped by the ancient Egyptians as the Sun-god and creator, Ra). This viewpoint was obviously irreconcileable with Christianity since it accepted the existence of other gods and goddesses, so the neo-druidic groups split from the Church, while retaining their belief in God, but calling him by a different name.

[ 01-22-2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Epona ]

01-22-2003, 08:08 AM	#71
NiceWorg Baaz Draconian Join Date: January 15, 2002 Location: Vaasa, Finland Age: 42 Posts: 772	The fact that God wouldn´t exist can never be proved wrong. There is no method to do it, we just have to trust our own judging that god doesn´t exist because evolution has no place for something like God. The theory of evolution gives answers to the questions you might have about the little miracles of life. It cannot explain all the things, but then what could? Therefore I think being atheist is good for your mental health & sense of reality. Sorry I didn´t have time and patience to read through all answers, in case someone has pointed this out already. EDIT: Check below for original. [ 01-22-2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: NiceWorg ] __________________ Fell in love with a country girl, morning sunshine<br />She was up from a nether world, just to bust another soul<br />[url]\"http://jarkokson.suddenlaunch.com\" target=\"_blank\">Click!</a>

01-22-2003, 08:33 AM	#80
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	Very interesting thread! I'm an atheist. I simply don't believe. There is no way I could force myself to, and it would feel as though I was compromising my own beliefs to try. If it turns out that I'm wrong, there won't be a lot I can do about it. I do find that it is an interesting question about the identity of God/Allah/multitudinous ancient gods. I have many muslim friends, and when they talk about god to someone English, they use the word God. When they talk to other non-English muslims, they use the word Allah. They are clear that the Christian and Muslim gods are one and the same, and use the appropriate term depending on who they are speaking to. The main difference is that muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, but another prophet, albeit a less important one than Mohammed. Another interesting point, neo-druidism was originally a break-away from Christianity. They believed in God, but came to the conclusion that he was one of many ancient Gods (I believe they decided that he was most likely to have been worshipped by the ancient Egyptians as the Sun-god and creator, Ra). This viewpoint was obviously irreconcileable with Christianity since it accepted the existence of other gods and goddesses, so the neo-druidic groups split from the Church, while retaining their belief in God, but calling him by a different name. [ 01-22-2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Epona ] __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

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01-22-2003, 08:12 AM	#72
Irongrinder Avatar Join Date: June 8, 2001 Location: The forest Posts: 526	About point 3 It is also about believe. For the leaders who start the war not, for them the reason is money, power and who knows what else. But for the people fighting the fight (the suicide bombers, the people hating each other next door in Northern Ireland) the reason is in many cases religion and not money, because they hardly see anything from the money but believe in what their leaders tell them about their believe and the opponents believe. So without their believing who would fight for the leaders? [ 01-22-2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Irongrinder ]

01-22-2003, 08:22 AM	#76
Grungi Banned User Join Date: September 4, 2002 Location: no Age: 46 Posts: 1,446	forget humans, what about amoeba? they have feelings too [img]tongue.gif[/img] (well maybe not but who knows what animals, bacteria, etc believe in) why are they not mentioned? whats their purpose on the planet? to get into heaven? no its not, their purpose is to procreate, eat and die and so on. Why are people so egocentric that they think everything is about the human race, the human race is insignificant we are one tiny miniscule part in this galaxy let alone the universe, theres probably billions of lifeforms out there, all who have different beliefs. Using the human race as the only example without consideration of other lifeforms i find to be not taking the bigger picture. why does there HAVE to be a purpose for me on this planet? i dont feel like asking or answering that question, far as im concerned im here, why care why? im here, im going to enjoy my life and then hopefully if my personal beliefs come true im going to have an afterlife of sun, sea, sand, sex, etc [img]smile.gif[/img] i dont even care "why am i here" a dog doesnt question why its on the planet, a human does, that says to me a human is more evolved and more intelligent but also becaue they are more complex they need questions like that to stop them going insane, a dog has no such troubles, what that DOESNT mean is that there "has" to be a reason for everything. one thing i noticed that you did not address and seem to be avoiding is the original point about getting into heaven, id like to know your responses to that. plenty of religions DO put forward war as a good thing, just not mainstream ones. and in the past almost all religions considered war a good thing, its just changed in recent centuries. Didnt want to mention it again, but look at the crusades, knight templars etc are a religious order, fighting for god etc. But its all in the past now and not relevant today, just dont make a statement that all religions arent about war, cos thats untrue, some are and some were. You dont think 1 billion people can be misled!?!?! are you mad [img]tongue.gif[/img] , were HUMAN we believe way too much, if tv told people something you'd get a billion people believing it quickly if it sounded plausible enough, in the middle ages almost every person on the planet KNEW the world was flat, so erm yes 1 billion people can easily be misled or wrong. as for need, well need is need, but why it should come from a higher power i still dont see your argument at all, need comes from instinct, whether that instinct was created by a higher power or just by a simple reaction to your environment, well its far more plausible that its environment and not a higher power. Your trying to talk about things in terms of whats plausible and that just doesnt work, everyone can prove either way whats plausible or not , and thats an unwinnable argument. But i do still want to know exactly why god would let saddam hussein in if he repented but wouldnt let mother teresa in if she professed not to believe in him? If i know anything about god he'd let mother teresa in and saddam would find himself with a severly scorched backside.

01-22-2003, 08:24 AM	#77
Grungi Banned User Join Date: September 4, 2002 Location: no Age: 46 Posts: 1,446	evolution does allow a place for god, theres plenty of christians who believe in evolution too, afterall its easy to just say god designed evolution and has an ultimate purpose that were evolving into. thats the "great" thing about religion, you can get it to mean anything you like.

01-22-2003, 08:28 AM	#79
Irongrinder Avatar Join Date: June 8, 2001 Location: The forest Posts: 526	Vaskez, about point 6: Why is this? Because people always need something to hang on to, that's in our nature. I myself keep options open, but need proof to believe in it. It would be interesting to know why we are here and if there really is a god, but in my opinion I don't see what that would help me live my life right.

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