Planning ahead!

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Hey you all!

I was wondering if y'all pick characters or races based on the items you know are already there? I've found three Giant Swords and I have no mook in my party; bumber. I've never had a chance to try this weapon. I also regretted not giving my rogue a staff from the start. She has the staff of doom now but she could have had her skills up way sooner. The daggers were useless in her position anyway.

I just killed Nessie! (should have called it Ogopogo though)

I also just switched my Ranger to a Fighter to get Berserk but his attacks don't seem any better?

[ChaosTheorist]

I was wondering if y'all pick characters or races based on the items you know are already there? I've found three Giant Swords and I have no mook in my party; bumber. I've never had a chance to try this weapon.

As mentioned in the other thread, there are a couple of "guaranteed" items that give specific class/race combinations an edge, but they're really "all else being equal" type advantages. I.e., *IF* you're going to take a Ranger, and *IF* you don't have a particular reason to use another race, then make the Ranger a Mook, who can then use the Giant's Sword. *IF* you're going to take a Ninja, and *IF* you plan for that Ninja to be a melee fighter rather than a thrower, and *IF* you don't have any specific desires as to race, then make the Ninja a Faerie, who will be able to use the Cane of Corpus.

I also regretted not giving my rogue a staff from the start. She has the staff of doom now but she could have had her skills up way sooner. The daggers were useless in her position anyway.

In Wiz8, Rogues are very much front-line melee characters, backstabbing with dual Thieves Daggers or Stilettos, or a good sword (i.e. Fang, *Light**Sword*) if one is available; it sort of works using one in the center as a ranged specialist, but doing so gives up a good portion of the Rogue-specific abilities of the class.

I also just switched my Ranger to a Fighter to get Berserk but his attacks don't seem any better?

Don't forget that this character is a Level 1 Fighter. Yes, the attributes are probably quite a bit better than a real on-the-beach new Level 1 Fighter, but the "Fighterness" value that is used internally along with the personal attribute and skill values is still 1.

[ScottG]

yes and no, after about the 2nd game through yes (for something a little different).

I personally think this contains considerably more "cheese" than taking a level in rouge for the stealth AC bonus. After all you could easily have come up with idea on your own (and the game isn't balanced on AC versus hit rate), but how on earth could you have known that the cane of corpus was even available - let alone available for a specific race and class? I think this is what people are talking about when they use the "meta" term, (it reeks bad).

On the other hand you don't want to be dissapointed either (which seems to be all to familiar with inconsistent chest "drops"). I have no problem looking at other sites to see what is available by name and damage (and hopefully weapon type). The list I use doesn't tell me where the item is or who can use it or even what special effects it has - it just gives me heads up to say you have several choices or not for a type of weapon and that a particular weapon is more likely to be more powerfull or not. For example: I like extended reach weapons so I look in that category both to "uber" weapons and simple weapons to see if I want to specialize in a particular type of weapon (polearm is a no-brainer here, but mace and staff look decent to). Additionally I also choose at least two and usually 3 weapons to speacilize in to extend my options (typically they will be trained up into the 80's). Of course then there is the whole "training" issue...

[tuckyboy]

Another way to plan ahead: read Boscher's articles on how to best develop classes. They can be found at http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/

Understanding which race/class combinations develop quickly and which develop slowly can mean the difference between fun and frustration.

Alternately, some people intentionally choose hard to develop race/class combinations to increase the challenge.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Thanks tuckyboy. I'll check it out.

[ChaosTheorist]

Another way to plan ahead: read Boscher's articles on how to best develop classes. They can be found at http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/

FWIW, you might want to take the Bochser recommendations with a grain--or a pound--of salt:
1) Hybrids are evaluated strictly as pure fighters; specifically, INT is completely ignored. That alone invalidates the Bochser hybrid analyses for me due to the way I build and use hybrids: I want strong spell casters, so I bring up INT and the most-useful combat-related attribute first.
2) The analyses are based almost solely on how quickly a given race/class combination maximizes several--typically 5--attributes. So a given race is declared "better" than another because it maxes all the selected attributes by, say, level 43 instead of level 39. As we all know, in a full party you're going to finish the game before anyone except (maybe) non-magic classes even sees level 30.
3) Specifically in the case of the Bishop, Bochser includes PIE as the second-most-important attribute. In fact, it's essentially irrelevant.

Now, to be fair, those analyses were done shortly after the game was released, and thus relied a lot on the documentation in the manual and in the game, rather than on a lot of actual play experience. As we've found, the advertised info doesn't always match real-world conditions: Piety really doesn't matter, STR is more important than SPD for a Monk, etc. So read the Bochser analyses in the light of how *you* plan to develop *your* characters; understand the patterns and issues; but don't blindly pusht the "I believe" button.

[ScottG]

I am tracking virtually parrallel to your thinking, as you have pointed out the Boscher recommendations are quite flawed. First time I saw 'em I was thinking - cooooooool. Then I went through them about 5 times and and compared them to what others were stating in open discussion section and thought - not so cool. Then I compared them to my way of thinking and thought that the recomendations (while still being better than what I was doing my first game through), provide more dis-information than anything.

[EEWorzelle]

ScottG, is that why you are creating a new user guide, because you think players are at the same level as those old guides? I never agreed with the race picks of Boscher, and even the awesome Atlus7 would be the first to admit that some of his spotlights are partially obsolete or, at least, incomplete.

The general level of play has gone way, way beyond what players discovered in the first few months the game came out. Most of the web site character creation and development advice hasn't been revised since then.

If you are creating information for new players, you might want to run your controversial stuff across players here at this board, to sharpen, refine and revise. Wizardry8 players, in my experience, are very supportive of work to help improve the game experience for new players. I, myself, am working on some guides, too. I thought I had a place to post them, but maybe not now.

Anyway, while supportive, players will, without hesitation, cut you to ribbons if you advise new players in ways they have found not to be true in their own playing experience. These are not shy people, and don't underestimate how much they know. There is a lot of expertise here and other places. Feel free to use it and us to help sharpen your work.

[ScottG]

I intend to post the information here (not on any other sites), unless of course there is some technical difficulty or the moderators/sys admin/owner does not wish it (I'll prob. do one post in multiple parts through edits). The game was so agrevating at the beginning w/ just the manual - I didn't enjoy barely surviving at every turn with the first party I created (and I could tell that this game could be very enjoyable). Then I jumped to resources like this site (several months ago) and found all sorts of information - but thats all it was, all sorts of information (searching and the tip section). If some people can find what I'm writing usefull or entertaining then thats great! At the very least it should offer several areas for discussion where others can feel free to rip it to shreads. (I actually approve of this - if the theory is weak/flawed then it should be exposed for what it is. This of course will allow it to "sharpen, refine and revise" on its own should others wish to participate.) The structure is that of an editorial (as it will be stated up front) that combines many of the tips that can already be found in the tips post - BUT it will provide them in what I hope will be a more coherent fashion (that others might find more useable). (Otherwise it would simply be a useless restatment.)

It will be ref. as a beginners guide (titled to that effect). Hopefully that should imply that it isn't for experienced players who are way beyond Boscher's or Altus 7's analysis, but I will of course include links to them because they are available, (or the only massed point of referance a google search away). Of course better material can often be found here or on other forums with a search, but like the tips section here it isn't really coherent and it typically encourages the "meta" hunt (something I find worthwhile to avoid).

I guess then what I'm saying is that your are partially correct. But the real reason is that I want to help create for others what I was originally looking for after my first debacle with this game - and I hope that you and others will participate in that goal. (and what I was looking for isn't the format that Boscher or Altus 7 used.)

[ZarahNeander]

Originally posted by ChaosTheorist: That alone invalidates the Bochser hybrid analyses for me due to the way I build and use hybrids: I want strong spell casters, so I bring up INT and the most-useful combat-related attribute first.

WRT to hybrids, I'm facing a dilemma: I either invest in magic (but not int), leaving me with the nagging feeling, that I've wasted zillons of skill points, when thier offensive magic becomes next to useless later in the game. Or I ignore magic for the most part, leaving me with the nagging feeling, that I miss the best part of hybrids: being hybrids.

Meanwhile I think, offensive magic is fruitless without powercast, but I'm reluctant to go this route cause I'm afraid, that I'll end up with a less than stellar caster *and* a less than stellar fighter. So I would appreciate some hints/experience with your hybrids builds, esp. in full sized partys, where facing mobs above your level is the norm.

Thanks in advance..

*Thread hijacking mode off*