Do ya like guns???

Originally posted by Moiraine: Larry, several points : - First, that guy you describe would be a thief, right ? Then his intent would be to STEAL not to HARM Stealing is harm. It is depriving my child, my wife, my family of what is theirs. The theif is dooing harm to me and mine. The idea that the theif is committing an innocent no aggressive act is less than credible. - If he is a professional thief, then he will have some sort of good sense - sense enough to know that a robbery would cost him much much less than a kill ... This particular sentance really reveals a lot about how you feel about theft. Apparently you feel it is a legitimate trade by giving it an appalation of "Professional" thief. Wonder if he should get medical and dental care and a pension? - IF he is a sensible kind of person, you can either stop him by harming him, or let him do the robbery and stay safe - If he is not sensible, and he is armed, then he's got as much a chance to harm you as you have to harm him ... You are wrong about this as well, with the terrain being known to you (who knows your home better than you?) you have a definate advanatage in any confrontation. The only time the intruder has the advantage is if you are unarmed or you do not know how to defend yourself and use your weapon. But in any case, won't the danger be greater if he gets a weapon out BECAUSE he's seen yours ? Again why is he going to see you before you see him? If you are intelligent and have learned how to defend your home and your loved ones the intruder has little chance of ever knowing what killed him. Of course I believe it is perfectly fine to kill soemone who intrude into my home...you do not...theres the difference.

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: No, The comparison between a butcher knife and a gun is not valid. Whereas a butcher knife is a tool used for rending dead flesh in order to make it suitable to eat, a gun is designed to kill people at range, with ease. Guess what...you are wrong [img]smile.gif[/img] Having lived on a farm, I have seen just what a butcher knife is for...a real butchers knife not the tiny little thing in your kitchen silverware drawer. It is used to slash the neck of the almost dead livestock so as to drain the blood from the soon to be carcass. this is done while the heart is still beating to help remove as much of the blood as possible, since this is necessary to help cool the meat and make the later tasks more manageable. I tend to agree with Yorik (*shock*), but also with the other people here who have said this is like religion - everyone *knows* they are in the right, nobody will ever change. I will simply part with one argument i have used a few times. I live in a country with strict gun laws. Nobody here needs a gun to feel safe, because the criminals don't have them. Why? Because we have gun control. Muggers don't carry them, thieves don't carry them. You can get mugged, robbed, beaten up, yes. Your chances of getting shot? Minimal. They don't have guns because of the gun control, so we don't need them. Result - fewer guns on the street, fewer guns available to the criminals. Result? Fewer people get shot and killed. And as a nice by-product, nobody gets disgruntled at their school/workplace, picks up an easily available lethal ranged weapon, and kills large numbers of innocent people. I tend to look on that as a positive. ever hear of pipe bombs? simple to make and easy to use, if some nut job wants to take out his school, or work place, banning guns won't stop him.

[Larry_OHF]

If a man breaks into my home and tries to run off with my baby...and all I have is a spoon to defend myself...I will kill the man with the spoon. I am not stopping to give him a chance to get back up and have a chance at winning this dance. His life is forfeit once he has entered the home with ill intent. He's all mine. He had better hope taht I can end it quickly with a gun, because a spoon will hurt alot more.

My wife and my baby are all I have of true worth, and I must protect them at all costs, even to the end of my own life...or another's.

[Larry_OHF]

You know, this debate has so far been one-sided. The pros say that a gun should be allowed for self-defence, and the anti's say that is not right. I would like to hear from an anti-gun member...How would you protect your loved ones? What method would you use to stop the crime in progress if a man was coming at you, and he was big enough to win a hand to hand fight? Please enlighten us, and turn this one-sided debate around.

Remember the structure of your answer. A man, in your home, creeping his way into your daughter's bedroom. He is probably armed with at least a knife.

[ 02-11-2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: You know, this debate has so far been one-sided. The pros say that a gun should be allowed for self-defence, and the anti's say that is not right. I would like to hear from an anti-gun member...How would you protect your loved ones? What method would you use to stop the crime in progress if a man was coming at you, and he was big enough to win a hand to hand fight? Please enlighten us, and turn this one-sided debate around. Remember the structure of your answer. A man, in your home, creeping his way into your daughter's bedroom. He is probably armed with at least a knife.

Larry, I too asked this question earlier, but have been ignored. Hope you get better results!

[Ronn_Bman]

I hate to give you guys more ammunition, but...

Even guns shooting blanks can kill. Remember Brandon Lee killing himself on a movie set while fooling around with a gun loaded with blanks?

Since I'm in favor of gun ownership, isn't sharing that like shooting myself in the foot.

[Lanesra]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Quote: Originally posted by Lanesra: Charlton makes a big deal of holding his rifle in the air and shouting 'from my cold dead hand' unfortunatly where guns are concerned this is very often the case. [/URL]

NO, it is not the case! Very, very few of the total number of firearms currently held in private hands in this country are involved in crime. Lord we have someting like 250,000,000 firearms that owned by something like 70,000,000 citizens! How can you say that "this is very often the case." That's a rather ill informed statement! Granted we do have a high crime rate, but there are other far more serious factors involved with crime than firearms. [/QUOTE]You can quote all the figures you want, the fact is every year, thousands of people worldwide have their guns prised "from their cold dead hands".

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by Lanesra: Has anyone here managed to see michael Moores documentry film 'Bowling for Columbine'. I managed to see it last night shortly after reading this thread, I thought it was excellent. I particularly enjoyed seeing Charlton heston squirming when questioned by Moore as to why the N.R.A held rallys in both Columbine & Flint only weeks after the fatal shootings in those towns, and refusing to look at the picture of the six year old, shot dead by a classmate. Charlton makes a big deal of holding his rifle in the air and shouting 'from my cold dead hand' unfortunatly where guns are concerned this is very often the case. You can find out more about the film here: http://www.michaelmoore.com/

An awesome, awesome, awesome film. Yes - it requires that many superlatives, its that good!

Before any of the pro-gun lot argue against Moore, his conclusion is not that guns cause crime. His conclusion is much more subtle than that, he basically reaches his conclusion by pointing out the wholes in the other arguments and then seeing whats left intact! Very socratic I suppose, but does sometimes leave you with the idea that he avoided saying what he actually thinks himself and just let other people make arses of themselves. For example, he starts with the question of why does America have such a gun crime problem when compared to other Western developed nations? Is it because they have too many guns around? Well no - because Canada has more guns, fewer people, and a vastly lower gun crime rate...

And so he progresses like that throughout the film - destroying each persons reasons for why the problem exists until he finds one that fits. I won't spoil it for you - go see it. Its great!

And the Heston interview is the stuff of legend, you will die unfulfilled unless you watch this at least once in your life...

[Aelia Jusa]

I saw it yesterday - fabulous. And I agree about the Heston interview - was particularly interesting to see Charlton fall back on the more crime/more ethnicity etc arguments to explain why there are so many gun-related deaths in America - arguments Moore had just finished debunking!

Re Larry's post about the criminal coming in to kidnap MaryBeth... even supposing these deranged criminals would make a spur of the moment decision, as you claim, to enter an occupied middle class home with the primary purpose to kidnap a little girl, you say that a gun is much better protection because if you were relying on a shovel, say, it wouldn't be useful because you'd have to go get it (as well as having less chance of him overpowering you in his deranged state). I can't imagine that any responsible parent so concerned for his family's safety would keep a loaded gun at easy access, and not unloaded in a safe with the bullets somewhere else, so how would having to go unlock your safe, retrieve the ammunition, and load the gun when he's already in the house be any better?

And of course, if you had a gun and the criminals come to steal from you when you're not home, they'll just steal your gun. A lot is made in Australia, where there are very strict gun controls, that shipments of illegal guns are entering the country and that's where the criminals are getting them from. But in fact (and I don't have a statistic available, I've only heard this a number of times on the radio news and current affairs program) most of the illegal unregistered guns have been stolen from people's homes, gun clubs, and police stations.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

look here to see that murderstill happens with out guns:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2737107.stm

And look here to see what happens to children when their parents cant protect them. Also , no guns involved:

http://www.emedia.com.my/Current_New...20030208113300

The problem isnt guns. Fire arms are just a convienient scape goat to blame. Untill people look at the root of the problem, the problem will never go away.