Dutch goverment resigns

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Arledrian: If some lunatic walked into your house, shot your family and made a quick getaway, would you rather he was killed or merely put into a (luxurious) prison cell, where he lives out the rest of his days in more comfort than he probably enjoyed before he committed the crime?

Perhaps we should means test criminals, to make sure they aren't getting more comfort in prison than they would have got outside? Maybe people who were homeless when they were put in jail should have to sleep outside in the yard - wouldn't want them getting all the bed and roof benefits after all

The point of prison is not so people can sleep on bare boards and eat gruel once a day to learn the error of their ways. The point is restriction of liberty. Locking people up for however long so they can't go anywhere, do anything, provide for their family, be a father/mother to their children. Do you honestly think that having a comfy bed or sleeping on the floor would make a difference if you knew that you wouldn't be able to look after your family, raise your kids, that you'd always have trouble getting a job when you got out, that your family would have the stigma of you being in jail? However cosy your cell is, however delicious the meals are, however super the TV shows on cable are doesn't change the fact that you can't leave for years and years. Imagine you in your house, with all your luxuries, your sofas, your beds, your hot water, your TV and computer etc. Now imagine never being able to leave the house. Your family would only be able to talk to you through the front door. There might be hostile people living next to you that might bash you or rape you or worse. I don't think any comforts you might enjoy are going to make much of a difference.

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: For those of you that don't know, Srebrenica is comparable with 11 september, only alot more people died. But I guess your value as a person 'is' determined by your nationality, since absolutly no one outside Bosnia or the Netherlands has heard from it. Rather 1000 anonymous muslims dead then one citizen from the west. Its a sad world.

I don't know what coverage this got in Australia when it happened; I didn't watch the news much then. I can tell you that this story (that the government resigned) made it on the news - second last story before the sport, in other words one step about the feel good bunny story of the night *shrugs*. Guess they don't think we'd be interested. But then they also put shark feeding frenzy stories above news from the Middle east as well, so there you go.

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: For those of you that don't know, Srebrenica is comparable with 11 september, only alot more people died. But I guess your value as a person 'is' determined by your nationality, since absolutly no one outside Bosnia or the Netherlands has heard from it. Rather 1000 anonymous muslims dead then one citizen from the west. Its a sad world.

I don't know what coverage this got in Australia when it happened; I didn't watch the news much then. I can tell you that this story (that the government resigned) made it on the news - second last story before the sport, in other words one step about the feel good bunny story of the night *shrugs*. Guess they don't think we'd be interested. But then they also put shark feeding frenzy stories above news from the Middle east as well, so there you go.[/QUOTE]Ok I don't remember if it was the Washington Post or MSNBC but the last I heard, since Austrailia has enacted its tough firearms laws, their crime rate has increased....whats up with that?

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: . If you talk about One persons We have an American Fugitive in the netherlands his asylum application got accepoted bcause in the US he's not sure of his life And the reason? He has different political views Nothing more nothing less he never did anything dangerous and sayd nothing worse then i have

I think you have been misinformed on this, we do nOT arrest people for their opinions and to say this guy had to flee just because he disagreed with the government is definately not telling the whole story. I myself frequently criticize the government, I unlike Alexander realize the gun laws in this country are not LAX, it is the enforcement of those laws that is lax, and I frequently protest, complain and in other ways let my representative know what I think about the current policies, Ive never once feard being arrested just because I differed with the local, state or federal governments.[/QUOTE]We could have an excellent system like in the UK, where there are approximately 10-20 firearm deaths each year.
Or, we could continue on our present path and have some insanely high number in the 5-6 digit range just to Charlton Heston can be happy.

Of course, UK forbids the use of firearms at all...[/QUOTE]And not to knock the UK but look at its global standing among nations, it is just another medium sized country. So should we do everything the way they do it?

You don't like firearm deaths?? Fine, then enforce the laws that already exist, did you know that it has been illegal to use a firearm to comit murder for more than a century...so why do we need 347 (and counting) new laws to make it more illegal? Do you think that criminals will quit getting firearms if you make them all illegal..oh...wait..it is already illegal for a felon to posses one...hmmm seems to me that the problem lays in law ENFORCEMENT and not in what laws exist. Making something illegal does not make it go away, just look at drugs, just look at prohibition..banning things does not fix the problem. Enforce the laws, make the punishments HARSH, again I will state my personal feeling that petty criminals and thugs be subject to public caning, to take place in their neighborhoods..I guarentee the petty crime will diminish rapidly, and behind that harsh cruel conditions in the prisons will endsure people are AFRAID of going to jail. Punishments NEED to be harsh and decisive if they are going to work. I cite Singapore and its very clean and safe city streets. Only problem there is the people have NO freedom Brittain has MORE than it's fair share of problems, adopting their methods is not going to fix our country.[/QUOTE]Just another medium-sized country? What planet do you live on? The UK is among the most powerful nations in the world. It is the USA's closest and most powerful ally. Just because the British Empire no longer exists does not make the UK a "medium-sized country" by any stretch of the imagination.

Obviously, in your travels, you have never been to the UK, otherwise you'd know what you're talking about.

Second, why do some people feel it is necessary to own assault rifles and machine guns? The mentality of the right-wingers and the NRA is that if we take away assault rifles, we'll take away everything. When will these people wake up and learn that assault rifles = more gun deaths? Like it or not, anyone who owns a gun is statistically much more likely to kill a family member or friend than an "intruder". Going by pure facts and statistics, guns probably should've been banned long ago, but then, there is that small but powerful group of right-winger wackos in this country who NEED their guns for some unfathomable reason.

If you want harsh punishments and caning in the streets, fine. Go move to Singapore (where, NOT by coincidence, there is no freedom). But don't complain if you or a loved one is wrongly accused of jaywalking and beaten senseless.

Do we need to punish everyone for every little infraction of the law, no matter how trivial? What about drug users? Many have been brought back from the brink and been saved from drug addiction, should those people have been punished instead?[/QUOTE]Thanks for reading all kindsof things I never said into that post. At this point I see its useless to try and discuss anything with you, since you refuse address what was actually said.[/QUOTE]Everything you said, I responded to. No more, no less. You called the UK a medium-sized country, and I responded to that. You said that gun laws do not need to be tougher, and I responded to that. You said that punishments need to be harsher, and I responded to that.

I addressed EXACTLY what was said - if you said something in error, or you forgot what you previously said, that is your own problem, not mine.

It looks to me like you're trying to back out of this argument with your tail between your legs - but not without a parting potshot at me, I see, probably so you can preserve some dignity.

Thanks for the attemtp at a useful discussion, I don't mind trying to exchange views on things, but I would prefer to at least do it with more give and take and less twisting meanings and baseless nonesense.

You are the one who made all sorts of assumptions about me - all the "twisting meanings" and so forth came from your end. I'm sorry if you cannot provide a meaningful discussion and instead try to blame others for that.

If you really believe that I have formed my opinions out of ignorance or barbarism thats your perogative. I personally think it is far more barbaric to allow criminals to threaten innocents and society as a whole.

I have never once said that we should let criminals run rampant into the streets and threaten innocents, as you imply. I just don't think that killing everybody is the answer. If you think anything less than your "kill everybody" rhetoric is barbaric, then so be it.

Many of you HATE the very core of things that I believe in and for that Im sorry. You say Im a barbarian and ignorant and many other less kind things. All I can say is that if you really believe that, well I hope you get to live in a world of your own making...

Likewise - then you will realize how warped your extremist proposals are.

I have seen what kind of environment ensues from the "kinder, gentler" philosophies, and I prefer the more harsh but fair environs I provide for my children and my family.

You prefer Singapore to the UK, yes, we understand. So go live in one of these harsh countries, and you will realize that it's not a very pleasent prospect.

It may be that my philosphy is outdated, but it is one that has allowed us to survive as a civilization so far. It is only in the later half of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st centuries that things have really gone to hell...lets re-examine the situation in a hundred years shall we?

Things have gone to hell because we don't provide assault weapons to everybody, kill all the Palestinians, and kill all people charged with serious crimes, guilty or innocent?Okay....(nods and smiles)....I hope your children have different views (for their sake).

[ 04-19-2002, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Alexander ]

[Katherine]

Originally posted by MagiK: .. . . . [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] I think bunnies should take over the world. [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] . . . . [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] . . . . . . . [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] ................................. [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] ! Did you know that bunnies in the REAL world have a pretty vicious nature? [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] that males eat their young? and are totaly [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] unfaithful to their spouses?

Who ever said that bunnies were nice? Oh no, my friend, bunnies are evil. Fear them greatly.

Everyone sing:
/oh... here comes Peter Cotton Tail
a'hoppin' down the bloody trail
a'hippity hop and Peter's on his way.
Oh... He'll eat you when you're sleeping
He'll eat you when you're awake
He'll eat you whether you've been bad or good
So RUN for goodness sakes!/

[img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img]

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by MagiK: Ok I don't remember if it was the Washington Post or MSNBC but the last I heard, since Austrailia has enacted its tough firearms laws, their crime rate has increased....whats up with that?

Long story but whatever you heard sounds very biased towards the Aus pro-gun lobby. Basically its because our police commissioner was a lot of talk and no action. Mostly because of Sydneys rapid growth, along with a bigger population base, there is a massive influx of asian gangs in the Cambramatta suburb of Sydney.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Alexander: Oh, please, feel free, without extra people it will become rather tedious.

Sorry Alex - you will learn, as we have, that facts and proof are wasted here.

BTW MagiK I see that geography isn't your strong point either. The UK is not medium sized it is quite small. You could fit the UK into Texas three times.

[caleb]

Originally posted by AzureWolf: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Ok I don't remember if it was the Washington Post or MSNBC but the last I heard, since Austrailia has enacted its tough firearms laws, their crime rate has increased....whats up with that?

Long story but whatever you heard sounds very biased towards the Aus pro-gun lobby. Basically its because our police commissioner was a lot of talk and no action. Mostly because of Sydneys rapid growth, along with a bigger population base, there is a massive influx of asian gangs in the Cambramatta suburb of Sydney.[/QUOTE]The crime rate increased because of all you kiwi's invading them [img]tongue.gif[/img] . Is there still a 5 page limit on threads?

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by caleb: The crime rate increased because of all you kiwi's invading them [img]tongue.gif[/img] . Is there still a 5 page limit on threads?

Ah shuddit and get on to MSN biatch [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Spelca]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Spelca: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: (...) Enforce the laws, make the punishments HARSH, again I will state my personal feeling that petty criminals and thugs be subject to public caning, to take place in their neighborhoods..I guarentee the petty crime will diminish rapidly, and behind that harsh cruel conditions in the prisons will endsure people are AFRAID of going to jail. Punishments NEED to be harsh and decisive if they are going to work. (...)

Hey, let's bring back public hangings too. That would really help against crime, wouldn't it? [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Actually hangings were quite the fashionable thing, personally I don't really care as long as it is cheap, easy and effective...I do not advocate long drawn out execution, I believe in putting them down like any other rabid animal...quick and painless. I wish people paid more attention to the victims and less to the culprits.[/QB][/QUOTE]Oooh, we could hang them on trees and leave them there to rot as a reminder to others... [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] (<-- notice the sarcasm please)