The Draft

Originally posted by Yorick: A woman that succeed in a male dominated area, has to be twice as good as her male counterpart to even get status quo. That takes courage.

Id like to address this a bit. Now there are all kinds of business environments and many are unique, what I can talk about from experience is Women in Unix System Administration. I have in the past been tasked with interviewing and picking the best candidates.

What I observed during those two years was the following. Women were every bit as aggressive as men seeking the job (not twice as aggressive as you imply) they were as knowlegable (not twice as knowledgeable) and the last thing that struck me as sad but true, women were less than half as likely to aggressivly negotiate salary. In my position I was to negotiate for the company, ie. I offer a low ball salary expecting a counter offer. My personal count showed that all but one woman either accepted the low ball salary (then later complained about it) or just didn't take the job. This told me that the women I was interviewing while technicly as qualified as the men, just did not yet have the....business skill to make the best deal for themself. This caused women in our Tech staff to have lower over all salaries than the men, not through some mystical "glass ceiling" but due to their own lack of understanding of the "game". That understanding comes with experience.

I do not know if this same lack of negotiation skill or nerve holds true in other buiseness but I know I saw it first hand. Unless you have a union working for you and setting wages FOR you, then YOU are responsible negotiating your own positions in the professional world.
(by the way, each position has a low end figure and a high end figure so I would always offer the lowest figure for the position and negotiate from there)

Men have to face the same worries and insecrities in life as women, we all make our own way as best we can and we all have to fear failure. Prejudice and racism and sexism, in a tough competitive professional envrionement may exist but for the most part quality people are so hard to find, if you are going to be successful as management you DO NOT care about anything except who is going to do the best job.

My boss, her manager and her director are all women [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-27-2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Different strokes for different folks. My former boss was so insecure about her job she made effortst to stitch the rest of us up to try and show her own job was needed.

We complained and she has been fired. Good riddancec to her

I know this doesn't argue for or against mental strength but she was certainly a very aggressive manager. However, so are some of the male ones

[Yorick]

MagiK, the glass ceiling is the top of the top. How many world leaders are women? How many multinational CEOs are women? How many professions allow a woman to rise to the very top?

Has America ever had a female president?

I rest my case.

Originally posted by Yorick: MagiK, the glass ceiling is the top of the top. How many world leaders are women? How many multinational CEOs are women? How many professions allow a woman to rise to the very top? Has America ever had a female president? I rest my case.

Hewlett Packard's top of the top is Carley Fiorina
The UK has a Queen at the top of the heap,
Sprint had 4 Women on the board of directors

You cannot argue that women are not able to reach the top, at least in the USA, there are women at the top, saying there arent enough statisticly brings us to quota's which are ridiculous. Stock holders are more and more only interested in your performance, not your sex.

I came up with three examples here without even thinking.....I bet if I tried Id find a load more.....also due to government "quota's" may government contracts can only be awarded to companies owned and operated by women...trust me there are a ton of them.

[ 05-27-2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Actualyl our Queen ins't quite "top of the heap" as we don't ahve a True monarchy. They are more symbolic than anything else

We have had a female Prime Minister though - Margaret Thatcher

Originally posted by Lord Shield: Actualyl our Queen ins't quite "top of the heap" as we don't ahve a True monarchy. They are more symbolic than anything else We have had a female Prime Minister though - Margaret Thatcher

Doesnt matter...The Queen or King is the one everyone outside the UK knows about...most people couldnt tell you that it is the PM who runs things. The Queen is the figurehead round which you rally, just as our flag and president are ours....or so my brittish drinking buddies would have me believe.

Yorick, the President thing is all together different from women inthe work place, the ONE thing that keeps a woman out of the Whitehouse is that not enough people will vote for her, not an evil old boy network focused on keeping women in their place....though women like McKinney don't help the cause of women any...

[Melusine]

Originally posted by MagiK: Doesnt matter...The Queen or King is the one everyone outside the UK knows about...most people couldnt tell you that it is the PM who runs things. The Queen is the figurehead round which you rally, just as our flag and president are ours....or so my brittish drinking buddies would have me believe.

LMAO!!
Uh... and exactly how drunk were they when they told you that?
Not very likely... figurehead indeed, most Brits wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry at that.
The Dutch have a Queen too, but your idea doesn't hold for us either. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Magik: Doesnt matter...The Queen or King is the one everyone outside the UK knows about...most people couldnt tell you that it is the PM who runs things. The Queen is the figurehead round which you rally, just as our flag and president are ours....or so my brittish drinking buddies would have me believe.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! There are NOT enough laughing smileys to convey this.

Magik, thanks for that comment. The guys at work can always do with a damn good laugh

"figurehead"
"rally round them"

*sniggers*

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Lord Shield: LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! There are NOT enough laughing smileys to convey this. Magik, thanks for that comment. The guys at work can always do with a damn good laugh "figurehead" "rally round them" *sniggers*

I rest my case