ONE question to all the atheists out there....

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Grungi: forget humans, what about amoeba? they have feelings too [img]tongue.gif[/img] (well maybe not but who knows what animals, bacteria, etc believe in) why are they not mentioned? whats their purpose on the planet? to get into heaven? no its not, their purpose is to procreate, eat and die and so on. Why are people so egocentric that they think everything is about the human race, the human race is insignificant we are one tiny miniscule part in this galaxy let alone the universe, theres probably billions of lifeforms out there, all who have different beliefs. Using the human race as the only example without consideration of other lifeforms i find to be not taking the bigger picture. why does there HAVE to be a purpose for me on this planet? i dont feel like asking or answering that question, far as im concerned im here, why care why? im here, im going to enjoy my life and then hopefully if my personal beliefs come true im going to have an afterlife of sun, sea, sand, sex, etc [img]smile.gif[/img] i dont even care "why am i here" a dog doesnt question why its on the planet, a human does, that says to me a human is more evolved and more intelligent but also becaue they are more complex they need questions like that to stop them going insane, a dog has no such troubles, what that DOESNT mean is that there "has" to be a reason for everything. one thing i noticed that you did not address and seem to be avoiding is the original point about getting into heaven, id like to know your responses to that. plenty of religions DO put forward war as a good thing, just not mainstream ones. and in the past almost all religions considered war a good thing, its just changed in recent centuries. Didnt want to mention it again, but look at the crusades, knight templars etc are a religious order, fighting for god etc. But its all in the past now and not relevant today, just dont make a statement that all religions arent about war, cos thats untrue, some are and some were. You dont think 1 billion people can be misled!?!?! are you mad [img]tongue.gif[/img] , were HUMAN we believe way too much, if tv told people something you'd get a billion people believing it quickly if it sounded plausible enough, in the middle ages almost every person on the planet KNEW the world was flat, so erm yes 1 billion people can easily be misled or wrong. as for need, well need is need, but why it should come from a higher power i still dont see your argument at all, need comes from instinct, whether that instinct was created by a higher power or just by a simple reaction to your environment, well its far more plausible that its environment and not a higher power. Your trying to talk about things in terms of whats plausible and that just doesnt work, everyone can prove either way whats plausible or not , and thats an unwinnable argument. But i do still want to know exactly why god would let saddam hussein in if he repented but wouldnt let mother teresa in if she professed not to believe in him? If i know anything about god he'd let mother teresa in and saddam would find himself with a severly scorched backside.

People are not egocentric. All they believe I think (well me anyway) is that God created us. God also created animals. I didn't say anything about us being special, all I'm saying is that we're not insignificat. We are precisely more significant to God because we can understand the concept of God etc.

I think there has to be a purpose otherwise we might as well be dead or not have ever existed. By definition: purpose is a reason to exist. If you don't have one, why exist? That's just my opinion.

I'm not sure about my point of view on heaven. If we take the Biblically accepted argument it's that no matter how good you are you cannot go to heaven(unless you believe) because the only route is through belief. Therefore if a criminal DOES truly believe and does TRULY repent in his mind, he is thereafter clean and there is no reason not to go into heaven. If we accept God, we know he can see into your heart. We might not be able to forgive a criminal just cos he's truly sorry, but we are not as great at forgiving or in any way as God (if u accept him). If you don't accept/believe in him then why are you worrying about heavan?

The knights templar etc. interpreted the Old Testament which teaches eye for an eye. Where they contradict the New Testament always supercededs the old. The New Testamant teaches love your neighbour. Therefore the Knights Templar were wrong to fight in the name of religion.

True 1 billion people can be misled by TV and science but you cannot make them feel anything as so many people have kindly pointed out. [img]smile.gif[/img] Therefore can you really mislead 1 billion people into FEELING and KNOWING the existance of a God. I don't think so [img]smile.gif[/img]

You are right that need might develop as a consequence of your environment. By YOUR argument you can say that God is part of our environment therefore God exists. Hehe.

I have already answered the question in your last paragraph. If Saddam Hussein repents in his heart and only God and he can know this and accepts God etc. then there is no reason not to go to heavan. As I said, if you worry about heaven/believe in it, you have to have some belief in the first place so then believe that God/Jesus is the only path to heavan. Therefore how can someone who doesn't believe in the path i.e. doesn't see the path - how can someone like that walk the path that they don't believe exists, no matter how good they are?

[Grungi]

epona my boss and one of my best mates is muslim, hes used allah and god in the same sentence before and when talking to other muslims with me around, he also speaks moroccan and arabic and obviously then hes using allah.

basically im just saying, it totally varies depending on the individual, yet again in tv and film muslims normally talk about allah and not god, and even in subtitling if they say allah, its translated as ... allah [img]smile.gif[/img] i dont think anyone really knows which to put, in my opinion allah now has become a word in its own right in the english language, if you worship allah your automatically a muslim now, that seems to be the way its gone

[Vaskez]

Everyone returning to the thread since yesterday (or 12 hours ago for some people ) then please check my bloody long thread near bottom of page 3 which atttempts to address all issues mentioned in the first 3 pages. Then you'll understand where the thread is at now.

[Masklinn]

Ok now let's assume there is no God. Ok so you die, you die and there is no ultimate purpose to life. Woohoo.

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would say : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.

We're just a form of life that came out from million years of evolution. Our brain evolved, changed and we don't work only by instinct anymore. Though we're not that different from any other form of life of this damn planet.

I'm not really an atheist. I believe that something created life (maybe cause I have no better explanation). But religions...no thanks...created by men to control other men obviously.

Anyway, next time if you can, watch a dog (or a squirrel) moving, running, breathing, eating, being happy, being mad, being mean...watch the dog and see how precious and magic life is.

Then when he dies, all the metaphysical questions you have about life and god, try to apply them to him. What happened to this particular life ?

Who knows really.

[ 01-22-2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Masklinn ]

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Masklinn: quote: Ok now let's assume there is no God. Ok so you die, you die and there is no ultimate purpose to life. Woohoo.

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.

We're just a form of life that came out from million years of evolution. Our brain evolved, changed and we don't work only by instinct anymore. Though we're not that different from any other form of life of this damn planet.

I'm not really an atheist. I believe that something created life (maybe cause I have no better explanation). But religions...no thanks...created by men to control other men obviously.

Anyway, next time if you can, watch a dog (or a squirrel) moving, running, breathing, eating, being happy, being mad, being mean...watch the dog and see how precious and magic life is.

Then when he dies, all the metaphysical questions you have about life and god, try to apply them to him. What happened to this particular life ?

Who knows really.[/QUOTE]Nice post. I agree that we're just evolved animals. However the important point is that we did evolve into something that can understand the concept of God. Animals din't. THat's the different between us and that's why sentient beings are special.

Everyone returning to the thread since yesterday (or 12 hours ago for some people [Big Grin] ) then please check my bloody long thread near bottom of page 3 which atttempts to address all issues mentioned in the first 3 pages. Then you'll understand where the thread is at now.

[ 01-22-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Masklinn]

Well, we just have the power of abstraction. We can imagin things. But it's maybe just a matter about how our brain evolved.

Or maybe not [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Masklinn: Well, we just have the power of abstraction. We can imagin things. But it's maybe just a matter about how our brain evolved. Or maybe not [img]smile.gif[/img]

Did you read my long post on page 3?

[Masklinn]

I did Vaskez. It's a nice post and I agree to most of it.

Why do you ask ?

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Masklinn: I did Vaskez. It's a nice post and I agree to most of it. Why do you ask ?

Dunno, I just thought that you hadn't read it based on what you said. I thought I had covered your question but I guess I hadn't

[Grungi]

but vaskez i exist with a purpose, my purpose is to enjoy life, nice n simple [img]smile.gif[/img] its nothing to do with religion though.

and im not worrying about heaven im asking you questions from a point of view of faith, as i dont believe its a moot point for me, but im interested to know what people think, because i do have opinions on most religions which i dont share but i like to ask and find out.

your saying god exists, therefore heaven exists therefore EVERYONE is judged? isnt that what you and all christians say? its not just christians who are judged its EVERYONE therefore im included so is saddam and any other example, therefore although they dont follow that path they can still end up there if it did exist surely? and then its very important whether someone good gets in or someone who is bad but believes....

and yes you can mislead people into feeling something, hindus all feel the same way yet they believe in a multitude of gods, whereas the christian god said he is the ONLY one, so you got millions on both sides, both feeling it, one MUST therefore be misled....