WAR MISCALCULATIONS

[Skunk]

I choose to clean up our own respective country's first (if that was the question), followed by Palestine and then Iraq, followed by Zimbabwe... - and we use the same methodology and the same arguments.

Since we have now 'liberated' Iraq by force of arms, the question of where to start is moot.

Perhaps the real quesiton is "Where next" (aside from our own)?
I suggest Palestine - to prove to the world that "Some are *NOT* more equal than others."

And we use exactly the same methodology - Demand that Israel complies with the existing SC resolutions that it has flaunted for 35 years or face military intervention.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Skunk: I choose to clean up our own respective country's first (if that was the question), followed by Palestine and then Iraq, followed by Zimbabwe... - and we use the same methodology and the same arguments. Since we have now 'liberated' Iraq by force of arms, the question of where to start is moot. Perhaps the real quesiton is "Where next" (aside from our own)? I suggest Palestine - to prove to the world that "Some are *NOT* more equal than others." And we use exactly the same methodology - Demand that Israel complies with the existing SC resolutions that it has flaunted for 35 years or face military intervention.

I believe the USA, UK and several others are currently working on just that problem, as soon as the new Palestian PR gets in office and has a new cabinet there will be a new proposal placed on the table.

[Skunk]

Yes but people are dying even as we speak.

The 'roadmap' is supposed to be final - no amendments allowed. Yet Israel has already tabled more than 100 amendments - this is akin to the way that Saddam flaunted SC Resolutions.

And have masses of flaunted SC resolutions - the time to act is now - comply with existing SC resolutions or face 'serious consequences'.

***Anything else is a double standard***

And speaking of flaunted SC resolutions, here is the complete list of SC resolutions (those that require action rather than merely 'condemn something) which are still outstanding for all countries. This should form our action list for the future:


United Nations Security Council Resolutions Currently Being Violated by Countries Other than Iraq
Resolution 252 (1968) Israel
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures that change the legal status of Jerusalem, including the expropriation of land and properties thereon.

262 (1968) Israel
Calls upon Israel to pay compensation to Lebanon for destruction of airliners at Beirut International Airport.

267 (1969) Israel
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.

271 (1969) Israel
Reiterates calls to rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem and calls on Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying powers.

298 (1971) Israel
Reiterates demand that Israel rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.

353 (1974) Turkey
Calls on nations to respect the sovereignty, independence, and territorial integrity of Cyprus and for the withdrawal without delay of foreign troops from Cyprus.

354 (1974) Turkey
Reiterates provisions of UNSC resolution 353.

360 (1974) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus "without delay."

364 (1974) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

367 (1975) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

370 (1975) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

377 (1979) Morocco
Calls on countries to respect the right of self-determination for Western Sahara.

379 (1979) Morocco
Calls for the withdrawal of foreign forces from Western Sahara.

380 (1979) Morocco
Reiterates the need for compliance with previous resolutions.

391 (1976) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

401 (1976) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

414 (1977) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

422 (1977) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

440 (1978) Turkey
Reaffirms the need for compliance with prior resolutions regarding Cyprus.

446 (1979) Israel
Calls upon Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying powers, to rescind previous measures that violate these relevant provisions, and "in particular, not to transport parts of its civilian population into the occupied Arab territories."

452 (1979) Israel
Calls on the government of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction, and planning of settlements in the Arab territories, occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.

465 (1980) Israel
Reiterates previous resolutions on Israel's settlements policy.

471 (1980) Israel
Demands prosecution of those involved in assassination attempts of West Bank leaders and compensation for damages; reiterates demands to abide by Fourth Geneva Convention.

484 (1980) Israel
Reiterates request that Israel abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

487 (1981) Israel
Calls upon Israel to place its nuclear facilities under the safeguard of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency.

497 (1981) Israel
Demands that Israel rescind its decision to impose its domestic laws in the occupied Syrian Golan region.

541 (1983) Turkey
Reiterates the need for compliance with prior resolutions and demands that the declaration of an independent Turkish Cypriot state be withdrawn.

550 (1984) Turkey
Reiterates UNSC resolution 541 and insists that member states may "not to facilitate or in any way assist" the secessionist entity.

573 (1985) Israel
Calls on Israel to pay compensation for human and material losses from its attack against Tunisia and to refrain from all such attacks or threats of attacks against other nations.

592 (1986) Israel
Insists Israel abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.

605 (1987) Israel
"Calls once more upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide immediately and scrupulously by the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War, and to desist forthwith from its policies and practices that are in violations of the provisions of the Convention."

607 (1986) Israel
Reiterates calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and to cease its practice of deportations from occupied Arab territories.

608 (1988) Israel
Reiterates call for Israel to cease its deportations.

636 (1989) Israel
Reiterates call for Israel to cease its deportations.

641 (1989) Israel
Reiterates previous resolutions calling on Israel to desist in its deportations.

658 (1990) Morocco
Calls upon Morocco to "cooperate fully" with the Secretary General of the United Nations and the chairman of the Organization of African Unity "in their efforts aimed at an early settlement of the question of Western Sahara."

672 (1990) Israel
Reiterates calls for Israel to abide by provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Arab territories.

673 (1990) Israel
Insists that Israel come into compliance with resolution 672.

681 (1990) Israel
Reiterates call on Israel to abide by Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Arab territories.

690 (1991) Morocco
Calls upon both parties to cooperate fully with the Secretary General in implementing a referendum on the fate of the territory.

694 (1991) Israel
Reiterates that Israel "must refrain from deporting any Palestinian civilian from the occupied territories and ensure the safe and immediate return of all those deported."

716 (1991) Turkey
Reaffirms previous resolutions on Cyprus.

725 (1991) Morocco
"Calls upon the two parties to cooperate fully in the settlement plan."

726 (1992) Israel
Reiterates calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and to cease its practice of deportations from occupied Arab territories.

799 (1992) Israel
"Reaffirms applicability of Fourth Geneva Convention…to all Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem, and affirms that deportation of civilians constitutes a contravention of its obligations under the Convention."

809 (1992) Morocco
Reiterates call to cooperate with the peace settlement plan, particularly regarding voter eligibility for referendum.

822 (1993) Armenia
Calls for Armenia to implement the "immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces from the Kelbadjar district and other recently occupied areas of Azerbaijan."

853 (1993) Armenia
Demands "complete and unconditional withdrawal of the occupying forces" from Azerbaijani territory.

874 (1993) Armenia
Reiterates calls for withdrawal of occupation forces.

884 (1993) Armenia
Calls on Armenia to use its influence to force compliance by Armenian militias to previous resolutions and to withdraw its remaining occupation forces.

904 (1994) Israel
Calls upon Israel, as the occupying power, "to take and implement measures, inter alia, confiscation of arms, with the aim of preventing illegal acts of violence by settlers."

973 (1995) Morocco
Reiterates the need for cooperation with United Nations and expediting referendum on the fate of Western Sahara.

995 (1995) Morocco
Calls for "genuine cooperation" with UN efforts to move forward with a referendum.

1002 (1995) Morocco
Reiteration of call for "genuine cooperation" with UN efforts.

1009 (1995) Croatia
Demands that Croatia "respect fully the rights of the local Serb population to remain, leave, or return in safety."

1017 (1995) Morocco
Reiterates the call for "genuine cooperation" with UN efforts and to cease "procrastinating actions which could further delay the referendum."

1033 (1995) Morocco
Reiterates call for "genuine cooperation" with UN efforts.

1044 (1996) Sudan
Calls upon Sudan to extradite to Ethiopia for prosecution three suspects in an assassination attempt of visiting Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and to cease its support for sanctuary and offering of sanctuary to terrorists.

1054 (1996) Sudan
Demands that Sudan come into compliance with UNSC resolution 1044.

1056 (1996) Morocco
Calls for the release of political prisoners from occupied Western Sahara.

1070 (1996) Sudan
Reiterates demands to comply with 1044 and 1054.

1073 (1996) Israel
"Calls on the safety and security of Palestinian civilians to be ensured."

1079 (1996) Croatia
Reaffirms right of return for Serbian refugees to Croatia.

1092 (1996) Turkey/Cyprus
Calls for a reduction of foreign troops in Cyprus as the first step toward a total withdrawal troops as well as a reduction in military spending.

1117 (1997) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates call for a reduction of foreign troops in Cyprus as the first step toward a total withdrawal troops and reduction in military spending.

1120 (1997) Croatia
Reaffirms right of return for Serbian refugees to Croatia and calls on Croatia to change certain policies that obstruct this right, and to treat its citizens equally regardless of ethnic origin.

1145 (1997) Croatia
Reiterates Croatian responsibility in supporting the political and economic rights of its people regardless of ethnic origin.

1172 (1998) India, Pakistan
Calls upon India and Pakistan to cease their development of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles.

1178 (1998) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates call for a substantial reduction of foreign troops and reduction in military spending.

1185 (1998) Morocco
Calls for the lifting of restrictions of movement by aircraft of UN peacekeeping force.

1215 (1998) Morocco
Urges Morocco to promptly sign a "status of forces agreement."

1217 (1998) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates call for a substantial reduction of foreign troops and reduction in military spending.

1251 (1999) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates call for a substantial reduction of foreign troops and reduction in military spending.

1264 (1999) Indonesia
Calls on Indonesia to provide safe return for refugees and punish those for acts of violence during and after the referendum campaign.

1272 (1999) Indonesia
Stresses the need for Indonesia to provide for the safe return for refugees and maintain the civilian and humanitarian character of refugee camps.

1283 (1999) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates UNSC resolution 1251.

1303 (2000) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates UNSC resolutions 1283 and 1251.

1319 (2000) Indonesia
Insists that Indonesia "take immediate additional steps, in fulfillment of its responsibilities, to disarm and disband the militia immediately, restore law and order in the affected areas of West Timor, ensure safety and security in the refugee camps and for humanitarian workers, and prevent incursions into East Timor." Stresses that those guilty of attacks on international personnel be brought to justice and reiterates the need to provide safe return for refugees who wish to repatriate and provide resettlement for those wishing to stay in Indonesia.

1322 (2000) Israel
Calls upon Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying power.

1331 (2000) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates UNSC resolution 1251 and subsequent resolutions.

1338 (2001) Indonesia
Calls for Indonesian cooperation with the UN and other international agencies in the fulfillment of UNSC resolution 1319.

1359 (2001) Morocco
Calls on the parties to "abide by their obligations under international humanitarian law to release without further delay all those held since the start of the conflict."

1384 (2001) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates 1251 and all relevant resolutions on Cyprus.

1402 (2002) Israel
Calls for Israel to withdraw from Palestinian cities.

1403 (2002) Israel
Demands that Israel go through with "the implementation of its resolution 1402, without delay."

1416 (2002) Turkey/Cyprus
Reiterates UNSC resolution 1251 and all relevant resolutions on Cyprus.

1435 (2002) Israel
Calls on Israel to withdraw to positions of September 2000 and end its military activities in and around Ramallah, including the destruction of security and civilian infrastructure.

[Timber Loftis]

Gosh, Skunk, what a list. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] Thanks for helping MagiK prove his point that the UN is useless and we should junk it. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[pritchke]

I would not say useless. It seems that most countries don't have a problem but 2 countries seem to be repeated over and over again. Solve those two and the list would be tiny

A better question is Why? How to fix it?

The list seems faulty because I don't see Iraq on it.

[ 04-10-2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Gosh, Skunk, what a list. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] Thanks for helping MagiK prove his point that the UN is useless and we should junk it. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

If my memory serves me right haven't you, on several occasions, used a resolution of the UN to justify the war on Iraq. Careful selection of which resolutions you adhere to makes you sound like a despot!!!!

[Timber Loftis]

Not at all, Donut. My beef with the UN is that its Resolutions have no effect. The US, for the first time in a long time, has given effect to some Resolutions.

Arguing the "law" as it is and advocating for change of the law are two different things.

And, this whole affair has actually swayed my opinion of the UN. Whereas 5 years ago I wholeheartedly supported it and desired to work for, in, near, or around it, today I view it as a useless whine-fest behemoth that serves only as a soap box for political manuevering. My view shift is not 180 degrees, but it has changed A LOT.

Originally posted by Skunk: Yes but people are dying even as we speak. The 'roadmap' is supposed to be final - no amendments allowed. Yet Israel has already tabled more than 100 amendments - this is akin to the way that Saddam flaunted SC Resolutions. And have masses of flaunted SC resolutions - the time to act is now - comply with existing SC resolutions or face 'serious consequences'. ***Anything else is a double standard*** And speaking of flaunted SC resolutions, here is the complete list of SC resolutions (those that require action rather than merely 'condemn something) which are still outstanding for all countries. This should form our action list for the future: ***SNIP LONG LIST OF PROOF THAT THE UN IS A USELESS COLLECTION OF WINDBAGS SNIP***

Thanks for backing up my position Skunk [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for why WE (as in the USA) don't do something about all that crap....mostly because we don't want to and don't necessarily agree with it. Why don't the UN take care of those problems?

[Skunk]

As for why WE (as in the USA) don't do something about all that crap....mostly because we don't want to and don't necessarily agree with it. Why don't the UN take care of those problems?

Because the US used the security council violations as justification for the war and used security council resolutions to declare the war 'legal'.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: As for why WE (as in the USA) don't do something about all that crap....mostly because we don't want to and don't necessarily agree with it. Why don't the UN take care of those problems?

Because the US used the security council violations as justification for the war and used security council resolutions to declare the war 'legal'.[/QUOTE]Well if anybody has a problem with Israel why don't they use the UN res. and invade Isreal? You now have a legal precedent ,load your ships up and attack at will. Word of warning though bring lots of body bags Isreal doesn't play around. I have no problem with anybody doing what they think they have to do, just accept the consequences of their actions.