I need to raise $$$ for bandwidth and ....

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: quote: Originally posted by Ziroc: Lot's of good ideas, keep them coming!! A Members 'gold plan' may be an idea.. something like--for 'x amount a month or something' you get extra options..it would have to be worth it. Like an image YOU as your avatar.. *not a rank difference*

For everyone that was screaming and bold coloring their fonts and all that about what I said...I wanted you to realize that Ziroc said this above, It is Ziroc's forum, not ours, and if Ziroc thought this was a good idea, then he gets it. Who are we to tell him off? If Ziroc can find a way around your concerns for it, and still make this idea happen, then I praise him for it, and support it. Nothing that anybody else whines about matters.
So calm your asses down.[/QUOTE]Larry, Ziroc was looking for SUGGESTIONS and IDEAS...he did not come up with this on his own. So calm down yourself. You may be rich as Croesus and able to afford to give large bundles of money to Ironworks, but I for one think it is just plain WRONG to have an elitist system based on how much you pay.

Know this...there are several people here who are prepared to WALK from IW if such a system goes into effect. I am one of them.

-Sazerac

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: quote: Originally posted by Ziroc: Lot's of good ideas, keep them coming!! A Members 'gold plan' may be an idea.. something like--for 'x amount a month or something' you get extra options..it would have to be worth it. Like an image YOU as your avatar.. *not a rank difference*

For everyone that was screaming and bold coloring their fonts and all that about what I said...I wanted you to realize that Ziroc said this above, It is Ziroc's forum, not ours, and if Ziroc thought this was a good idea, then he gets it. Who are we to tell him off? If Ziroc can find a way around your concerns for it, and still make this idea happen, then I praise him for it, and support it. Nothing that anybody else whines about matters.
So calm your asses down.[/QUOTE]Larry, no need to get defensive, mate. People took issue with your idea, not with you. This is a discussion - we're all brainstorming ideas here to raise money. Ziroc ASKED people for their opinions. Why do you think he posted this thread if he didn't want to hear opinions? People will agree with some, disagree with others. Don't you think it will help Z if he can hear the pros and cons of each idea, from many perspectives?

Don't take the criticism personally.

Myself, I couldn't care less what people think of my ideas - I'm quite confident that I can defend them anyway. I WANT people to challenge my ideas, because it gives be the flipside which I might not have seen in the first place.

And as you reminded us, it's Z's call at the end of the day. We're all just putting our [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] in to help him make a decision on how to go forward.

[ 05-08-2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: For everyone that was screaming and bold coloring their fonts and all that about what I said...I wanted you to realize that Ziroc said this above, It is Ziroc's forum, not ours, and if Ziroc thought this was a good idea, then he gets it. Who are we to tell him off? If Ziroc can find a way around your concerns for it, and still make this idea happen, then I praise him for it, and support it. Nothing that anybody else whines about matters. So calm your asses down.[/QB]

Larry, I realize you were just going with Z's comment, but this sounded a bit like you were slapping people down for their opinions against it... I hope it's not how you intended it! Assuming it's not, in reply I'd say,

Who are we? WE are the ones who are being asked to send MONEY, Larry. THAT is who we are. WE are the loyal members of Ironworks who want to see it keep running. WE are people who may already have sent money and not have it to keep sending for special recognition. WE are many kinds of people from many different countries who are expressing our opinions based on our experiences and preferences. WE are people who enjoy this site, spread it's reputation as a good place to be and help MAKE it a good place to be like anyone else. WE are members of Ironworks who CARE about how it will look and want to KEEP members not lose them to 'elitism'. WE are people who are giving Z our honest opinions, even if that means not getting special privileges. THAT is who we are. If you like the idea of a place that makes someone feel bad because they can't pay but you can, that's fine. Some people don't. And saying so is hardly 'whining'. I didn't see Memnoch whine, but he voiced the same opinion on that topic. [img]smile.gif[/img]

For what it's worth, I'll tell you about how I collected for Dan's and Donna's wedding gift. It may drive home the point and help people see what is going on behind the scenes when we talk about 'giving' to IW.

I was THE only one to know how much any one person donated and kept that strictly to myself. Everyone who wished to do so, sent money in one way or another. Some couldn't give as much as others but they felt just as good because the CARD/calligraphy that was sent to Dan and his bride listed us all with NO hint as to who contributed more than the others. I was donating a modest amount of money but also a lot of my time and effort to co-ordinate and actually purchase and send the gifts.

ONE person on that list ended up being unable to send the money and was very upset because he really wanted to do something to help celebrate Dan's happiness. I was (still am) very much in debt because I just built a house a few yrs ago and couldn't afford to add much to my donation but threw in a little more and I told that person that I would happily count part of MINE as if it were his and keep his name on the card. Nobody knew about this but me and him, until this post and that was over a year ago.

WHY did I do it? Because he really cared about Dan and his bride, really wanted to say CONGRATS with all the rest of us. He felt MISERABLE and left out because he had no money to do it with and was so thankful and overwhelmed that I had done what I did. His overwhelming gratitude and relief made me cry. My small addition equaled his mothers monthly salary!

He didn't get any 'special privileges' for caring, but he got the satisfaction of knowing that nobody knew he couldn't pay, they just knew he CARED and he could feel like he was an equal part of what we did.

I didn't have alot of money so I volunteered my TIME. You know, that is a Christian priniciple but I'm going to mention it as it's very appropo. In my church if you don't 'tithe' money you aren't any different from those who do. Because you can give your TIME and TALENT and those are valued equally. That is, one person may be able to give a hundred dollars a week but I can't so I give less money, but volunteer at fundraisers (cooking, selling plants etc) and create crafts for the Craft Fair (which raises funds too). My TIME and TALENT (skills) are as valuable as money. Others who can fix drains or paint rooms are equally valued members of that church.

MY POINT: We all give to IW in our own ways. Some more than others but that's the way life is all over the world. Some give lots of money but don't publicize it or ask for special privileges (I happen to know two people who do this) and some give a lot of their personal time to do mod work or simply to post interesting of fun things for others to read. Some spread the word that IW is a terrific site and bring new people in. Some offer their help to new members or answer questions about how a game is played or how to beat a particular puzzle/creature. Some just make you smile by being incredibly nice or sociable. Whatever they do, they contribute to our whole community and asking those who cannot do so by paying cash to watch those who have the money get some VISIBLE sign that they do, well, it's like saying, "HEY! Watch me eat this steak when all you have is moldy bread! Everyone KNOWS I had MONEY to give, but HA! they don't know about your time or efforts to make things fun or that you answer serious questions and make the place interesting and worthwhile because YOU don't have a nifty avatar(etc)! "

OK, I guess I've had enough air time here... sigh.. DAN, do what you will, but it's a very VERY divisive idea and I'm sure that the people who posted here aren't the only ones who dislike it.

Mario has some good ideas and so do many others here. Give us Banners, but don't make a 'special privileged class', I fear IW will not be the same after that.


[ 05-08-2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Larry_OHF]

I would not have said anything if people would not have bolded and enlarged keywords to stress this or that. Try reading out loud what those posts say. Raise your voice a little on the bolded words, and you will see that the people that oppose the option I supported sounds insulting, and since my post was the last one that was in favor of the money = personalized options, I was the most likely recepter of the insulting boldness of words.

And Sazerac, I never said I was rich. I said that I would pay Ziroc $10.00 to put my picture in place of that drawing there on the left.

Isn't it funny how all of us are reading the exact oppostite of what the writer is saying? I think we are all ■■■■■■■ blind, myself included, when it comes to reading and understanding what the writer is expressing.

[Larry_OHF]

Going back and reading everything, this is waht I perceive that Ziroc is imagining.

Banners and ads = Less favoritable
Pop-ups = Most definately no.
Pay for options = maybe
IW apparel = ???

That is all I have to go on. So far, in all these posts, nobody has really come up with anything new. It is with for or against banners...which is already seemingly decided...for or against pop-ups...already decided, for or against member optional bells and whistles, which is shared good and bad feelings, and a few people like the IW apparel idea. Some have liked the idea and some have not. I think it is a balanced yes and no on member options. A moderator's stance does not give more weight on one side because we are equal in that regard.

The problem is that in all this gibbberish...nobody can come up with anything better.

So...lets come up with another idea that is not banners, not member optional, and not donation begging related. We need fresh ideas, but at the moment, I can't propose anything.

[Cloudbringer]

Larry, that's so true. [img]smile.gif[/img] It's very hard to tell what a person's tone, facial and body language are adding to a comment when it's typed.

I get very passionate about this sort of thing because I may be doing ok now, but I've been without in the past and had to scrape by from day to day not knowing how I would even afford a loaf of bread, so I know how some people who aren't as fortunate as others feel. I've been a student too, so I know what it's like to WANT to have things or do things but not have the means to get them. I just felt a bit of empathy and could see they might feel very left out through no fault of their own, while those who are lucky enough to have the means to pay would be rewarded. Sorry if it sounded like shouting! I love to play with color/font and wanted to make my points clear.. not sound like I was shouting at you or anyone else. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now, lets all admire that beautiful little girl of yours and SMILE alot, shall we?

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: I would not have said anything if people would not have bolded and enlarged keywords to stress this or that. Try reading out loud what those posts say. Raise your voice a little on the bolded words, and you will see that the people that oppose the option I supported sounds insulting, and since my post was the last one that was in favor of the money = personalized options, I was the most likely recepter of the insulting boldness of words. And Sazerac, I never said I was rich. I said that I would pay Ziroc $10.00 to put my picture in place of that drawing there on the left. Isn't it funny how all of us are reading the exact oppostite of what the writer is saying? I think we are all ■■■■■■■ blind, myself included, when it comes to reading and understanding what the writer is expressing.

First of all, Larry, why is it that you automatically assume everyone is coming down on YOU? Just because you're the last person who posted? That's not necessarily the way it works in a public forum. People were shooting down the IDEA, not the person who expressed it. Please try not to be so defensive...it puts other people's backs against the wall and there's already enough divisiveness going around, as Cloudy pointed out.

Secondly, I know about the $10 thing you proposed, but Larry, it still sets up an elitist "class" here at IW: those who have personalized avatars and those who don't. Even $10 makes a difference in perception, small as it is. As soon as one starts tying in monetary donations to status, albeit a small one, that caste system will get set up.

That's all I'm saying. I personally do NOT want to be a part of any such system here at IW, and, although I will not oppose Ziroc's decision whatever it may be, I have made my views known and am prepared to act on them.

-Sazerac

[Larry_OHF]

I wanna thank Memnoch, Cloudbringer, and Sazerac for their last post, each. Your words make alot to sense to me now.



~Larry throws his baby at the mods. who in turn slobbers on them all.~

[Memnoch]

No worries, it's all part of good, honest dialogue, Larry. I doubt it would help Z if we all just tugged our forelocks and nodded at everything he said. This is a fairly important issue and I think we should hear opinions from ALL sides. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[DiabloRex]

Lots of ideas already it seems.
To sum up my post it will consist of this

-banners
-popups
-payment
-merchandise
-bandwidth

banners

I dont have anything at all against a gif banner that works the same way as a sig. picture. In the sites I have seen it doesnt ruin anything at all, as long as its just on the top and doesnt hinder your visibility radius (like it would do if you had, say a vertikal banner in the right side) and joined up with some rpg game company and have some dedicated space to that company should generate some cash as well. Although I do understand if you dont wish to be associated with one

popups

Now this is something you should say away from at all costs. Besides being extremely annoying they are quickly dealt with, using various popup killers, only resulting in no payment to you.

payment

I fully agree with cloudy, and the others who oppose this idea. Besides the arguments that have already been posted, I dont see why I should have to pay for something I can get for free another place. If any kind of "payment members only" ever comes here at IW, I am the first to delete my account and get out of here.

merchandise

Potentially the best idea, you get can services such as Cafe Press to make the merchandise, I dont know whats involved in administration, costs etc. but that can be found out [img]smile.gif[/img] Also selling merchandise doesnt differate members as payment would do, since its all in the members private home.

bandwidth

As someone pointed out, reducing bandwidth is also an option, that can include disabling of sigs and avatars. That should save up a lot of bandwidth. It should be used as a last way out though IMO.

I think that a banner in the top or selling merchandise is the best way, of the so far represented idea, to raise the money.

Over and out