Population vs Mismanagement continued...

[Kaz]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Thanks Moridin! Saves me having to reply, lol! Good points!

Ditto for me, too.

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I am the great Kazara

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by MagiK: Errr I would like to state that PEOPLE are the single most important species on earth. If you remove the only sentient species from the planet then the planet becomes a useless ball of rock good only to be fried when the sun expands into its red giant phase. Yes the other bugs, birds, animals and fish are important...but it is TO US that they are important. Without US they are important to no one. Please dont go on about primates being sentient or dolphins. When either species manages to make a decent walkman or even come up with a passable treatment for the common cold then I'll believe it.

*shakes head sadly*

There are no words.

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: *shakes head sadly* There are no words.

Sure there are, just no good ones


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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: I only use they and their when I'm talking about humans who believe in human dominion over nature. I am not one of these people so I do not say we. You'll notice when I discuss what should be done by humans to recify what's gone wrong I always use we or us.

This is the very attitude resultant from your ideology that I am discussing. You have removed yourself from the equation. By removing yourself from blame, you also disempower yourself from changing anything.

By definition you are human. You share as much blame as the next person for the state of affairs. What then are you going to do about the problem?



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moridin: What difference have humans made on the planet? Is Earth still nothing more than a useless ball of rock? And the statement that without US they are important to no one...what is that all about. You don't think that they are important to each other? It is clearer to say that they are NOT important to us, b/c it is us that are so blatant about killing them off!

I can see the logic. Do any other animals keep other animal classes as companions?



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Mouse]

Originally posted by Yorick: By removing yourself from blame, you also disempower yourself from changing anything.

And just why would that be exactly? Is is not conceivable that to approach the formulation of a workable solution to these problems is better achieved in a rational manner rather than whilst being overly influenced by emotional considerations such as "blame"

Oh, and before I forget, for anyone who is interested in classical theories of population dynamics and related subjects, just enter "Thomas Malthus" in your favourite search engine.

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Regards



Mouse

[This message has been edited by Mouse (edited 09-07-2001).]

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Yorick: This is the very attitude resultant from your ideology that I am discussing. You have removed yourself from the equation. By removing yourself from blame, you also disempower yourself from changing anything. By definition you are human. You share as much blame as the next person for the state of affairs. What then are you going to do about the problem?

*knocks on Yorick's head* Are you not listening? I said I only say they when talking about a particular position that I do not agree with. When I was talking about the dingoes and I said 'they' called for culling because 'they' believed this I can't say we because I did not call for culling and I don't believe that, thus I am not to blame in that situation. I am not taking myself out of the equation to make a difference since I always use we when I say we should do this, we should believe that.

I think you and I share the opinion that there is a lot humans (and by that I include myself) have done wrong in our dealings with the environment. But my view of why this has happened is that humans believe the earth is theirs to use for their own needs and they are the only creatures that have inherent value. I don't include myself in this because this is not how I see humans' relation with nature, and I think the only way for change to really come about is for this idea of human dominion over nature to change and for people to see that all natural things have inherent value of their own. Again I don't say for 'us' to see because I already see this.

[Yorick]

And my point is this. Human actions are to blame not numbers. Only by change in Human actions will the problems change. With less people the same damage has been done. The damage did not start with large numbers but with greater technology and the uses of it. By focusing on numbers and seperating yourself from the problem you are unable to do anything, even in a small way, to change it. All you can do is not have a child, or kill people, or publicly rant about a problem that the perpetrators - those in third world nations - will not ever hear about, much less change. Besides, as I stated, it is the comparitively "underpopulated" west that creates the most pollution/damage.

Taking ownership, recognising that our decisions have created the problems, you can spend your money and excercise cosumer/voter choices to greater effect.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: *knocks on Yorick's head* Are you not listening? I said I only say they when talking about a particular position that I do not agree with. When I was talking about the dingoes and I said 'they' called for culling because 'they' believed this I can't say we because I did not call for culling and I don't believe that, thus I am not to blame in that situation. I am not taking myself out of the equation to make a difference since I always use we when I say we should do this, we should believe that. I think you and I share the opinion that there is a lot humans (and by that I include myself) have done wrong in our dealings with the environment. But my view of why this has happened is that humans believe the earth is theirs to use for their own needs and they are the only creatures that have inherent value. I don't include myself in this because this is not how I see humans' relation with nature, and I think the only way for change to really come about is for this idea of human dominion over nature to change and for people to see that all natural things have inherent value of their own. Again I don't say for 'us' to see because I already see this.

Arrgh. Doing three things at once....



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Oh, fer cryin out loud, Yorick! You know quite well, if you read our posts properly that neither Aelia not myself have EVER said that population increase is the ONLY factor!!!!!!!!!
You just refuse to see population numbers as having ANYTHING to do with it! Which is utter nonesense!!!! The more people there are the more widespread the damage we do! GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

IMHO, of course!

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