Roleplaying/Alignment Dilemmas

[Q'alooaith]

The ring's at the base tell us what we can't see because we're stuck half a mile above the action (well a lot less distant, but still far away)

Hostile creatures would be snarling, making nasty sound's and all that, generaly not being very nice or friendly like..

Non-hostile creatures would be acting in a non agressive way, maybe just wandering about, sword's sheathed, claw's in mouths closed and so on..


Now back onto alingments.

Flip all your idea's arourd, you can now do anything but the motive behind the action is dictated by your allignment, an evil person killing quallo's true friend is in it for the reward, a good person is trying to free quallo from whatever enchantment he's under...

Extend this line of thought to every part of the game, don't ask would a good/evil person do a quest in a certain way, look at what they are thinking when they do it..

Alignments are meant to expand roleplaying possiblitys rather than sqaush them.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Q'alooaith: Now back onto alingments. Flip all your idea's arourd, you can now do anything but the motive behind the action is dictated by your allignment, an evil person killing quallo's true friend is in it for the reward, a good person is trying to free quallo from whatever enchantment he's under... Extend this line of thought to every part of the game, don't ask would a good/evil person do a quest in a certain way, look at what they are thinking when they do it.. Alignments are meant to expand roleplaying possiblitys rather than sqaush them.

I always try to decide what each PC's personality is in addition to their alignment. An NG fighter and an NG ranger might react quite differently to a similar situation due to their background and motivations. So alignment isn't a hard and fast trait that says "This character can never do X because it violates their alignment". A good example is the NG kensai I am currently playing. She has decided to fight the Cowled Wizards rather than pay their "fee". While my NE assassin refused to pay the bribe based on sheer greed, my kensai has refused to do it because the CW's attacked her party when Kelsey just cast a protective Stoneskin on himself. If he had been casting Fireball or some other spell that could endanger innocents, that would be one thing, but the Stoneskin spell didn't endanger anybody. Yes, our group had recieved their one warning, but she thought that only applied to damage-type spells that could endanger others. Being attacked because your mage cast a Stoneskin or your cleric healed some of your party's wounds is not justified in her opinion. So now she is going to set up ambushes for the CW's and teach them that Kasana Sage is not somebody to be messed with.

As for the question about Quallo, I decided to go back and complete the quest, just to see what happened. I Saved my game just before attacking the carrion crawler and then went through the steps to complete the quest and gain this new blade. Once it was completed, I went back to speak to Quallo and it was obvious that he had been under some form of Domination or Charm spell. He didn't really know where he was or how he got there. As Aerie said, "What a poor pitiful man". It's true that he was pitiful, but at least he was no longer being mind-controlled.

Also, I recieved a generous amount of Quest Experience points for getting the sword and breaking the spell, so apparantely it was a "good" thing to do.

[Q'alooaith]

Let me make this realy simple for people of a simmilar nature.

Now, I'll describe each alignment part on it's own , then I'll go into the more complex mixxed alignments.

Lawfull, somone who follow's the path of law and order, the second part is important, more so than the first... Somone who see's the state as more important than the indiviual people of the state/gorenment.

Chaotic, somone who does not follow the path of law, and who seek's indipendance from the state or governing body.. A chaotic type will put individuals before gorenments/state..

Neutral, somone who feel's that neither the state nor the indidual know what is best, and a ballence between the two is needed.

Ok, that's the law/chaos alignments sorted.


Evil, Looking out for number one, that's the prime motive of the evil person nothing matter's appart from the self and things that benifit the self.

Good, A "good" aligned person's motives are towards helping and aiding others, their motives are towards friends and so on.. The think about themselves last, or don't figure their own need's or wants into their thoughts.


Neutral, look's to get by without too much trouble, not motivated to gaining power for themselves or others other than just what they need to survive..

Ok got that..

Now look at combining the two aspects..

Let's take a couple of easy examples..

Chaotic good, If a tyrant is opressing the people, by making them rise up in open revolt and force him out of power, overthrowing his rule, and then leaving once the tyrant is gone..(not setting up any system before going)

Neutral good, Faced with the same tyrant a NG type would seek to destroy the tyrant himself, installing a new leader into the same position (probably one of the victims)..

Lawfull good, again the tyrant (again), work within the laws of the land to change the tyrant maybe taking him down in battle maybe simply getting him expelled from office.. (making sure there's a system in place for a replacment governmental system in place)


Now I could go on and do each alignment combo but I realy can't be bothered because you don't want to hear anything that tell's you your RPing "wrong"..

But..


I will add that alignment can be either action or intent. A good aligned person can commit "evil" act's if it furthers the overall good, and an evil person can do good act's simply because doing other would not benifit them..


Now I'm not saying anyone's RP of their alignment is wrong.. What I've provided above should be considered a guid as to what I think alignments mean.. Anything beyond that is your charactor's RP value and not alignment

[LennonCook]

Originally posted by Q'alooaith: Lawful, somone who follows the path of law and order, the second part is important, more so than the first... Somone who sees the state as more important than the individual people of the state/government.

I disagree with "the state". A Lawful person is one who feels that a defined set of laws of necesary, and that this should take precedence over an individual's notion of "right" and "wrong". This much, I think we agree on. However, you imply that they automatically follow the laws of the nation, the laws of government. This is not necesarily so: they might follow the laws of a god, for instance - Keldorn will follow the law of Torm before the law of the state if they conflict. By your definition, I get the feeling that he would have to follow the state's laws before Torm's in order to be "lawful".
Although ofcourse, one's alignment is not and cannot be a constant thing. If Keldorn follows Torm's law, and in doing so breaks the state's, he is behaving lawfully from his own point of view, but chaotically from the government's.

Chaotic, somone who does not follow the path of law, and who seeks independence from the state or governing body.. A chaotic type will put individuals before governments/state..

I agree with you on this, but I think you're being a little ambiguous. "does not follow the path of law": so, do they consider it irrelevant, and thus ignore it in favour of their own code of ethics, or do they seek to break it at every whim? To me, the former makesm ore sense, and the latter can be explained in terms of it. A chaotic person is a person who feels that their own code of ethics is superior to, and more important than, those set down by the applicable law.

Neutral, somone who feels that neither the state nor the individual know what is best, and a ballance between the two is needed.

Balance... it annoys me, that word. [img]smile.gif[/img] I see Law/Chaos neutrality as a moral mid way point, rather than a belief that it should be split (or "balanced"). Neutrality is the belief that neither is necesarily infallable, and that it must be decided whether to follow your instincts or the law on a situational basis, rather than at a high level.

Evil, Looking out for number one, that's the prime motive of the evil person nothing matters apart from the self and things that benefit the self.

I wouldn't say so much that "nothing matters", but rather that they are the most important. To Chaotic evil, sure, nothing matters except the self; but Lawful Evil would aid others if the law they follow demands it.

Good, A "good" aligned person's motives are towards helping and aiding others, their motives are towards friends and so on.. The think about themselves last, or don't figure their own needs or wants into their thoughts.

I feel that someone who cares primarily about their friends would be neutral more than good. To me, a good person puts the needs of society first, or aids people at their own expense regardless of whether they actually know them.

Neutral, look's to get by without too much trouble, not motivated to gaining power for themselves or others other than just what they need to survive..

Maybe not "what they need to survive", but I do agree that they don't care about power. Neutral would help someone else out a bit, but generally wouldn't do more than is necesary, while good would go out of their way to do so.

[ 01-21-2005, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: LennonCook ]

[Q'alooaith]

Lennon, before I rip you to shreads let me point out..

Keldorn is Lawfull good, when somone is "good" they belive in higher law's, whereas lawful belives in the law of the land and keeping order (imagine law as opposed to chaos, so it must also imclude order and so on)

I just stopped reading there because your not willing to see my point of view.

[Jerr Conner]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: quote: Originally posted by Cerek: When you accept the commission from the temple of your choice to have the statue made by the visiting artist, do you keep the precious metal yourself to create a powerful weapon later on...or do you keep your promise to the temple to deliver the metal to the artist?

Hm. Well, when I play, I neatly sidestep the moral issue entirely, by refusing to let Cromwell cheat me. I keep the real Illithium for myself, deliver the alloy to Sarles, and the reduced EXP I get from that is what I think I would get if I used 4 pounds (of the 200) for Cromwell, and gave the other 196 pounds to Sarles.

But, to answer your question, I would deliver the real illithium if I was a Priest of Helm, Lawful Priest of Lathander, or a Paladin. Any other character would despise Sarles as a spoiled, overrated sap, whose only motive for refusing to work in anything but "unobtainium" is merely to hog the spotlight. Any REAL sculptor would just work in gold, or simply gild the statue afterwards, for Pete's sake, gold doesn't tarnish either. [/QUOTE]How do you get Sarles to think it's the real alloy? I've tried and each time he always spots a fake.

[Jerr Conner]

Originally posted by Cerek: OK....time for a new RP dilemma that I encountered last night. Pai'Na and her hive of spiders A half-drow druid that has set herself up as a hivemother and guardian to the spiders you encounter underneath the Graveyard District. If you talk to her, she tell you she will give you free passage and protection from her spiders. In return, she asks that you find a weapon designed specifically to kill spiders and return it to her so that she may destroy it. The weapon is one of the better swords from BG1 - SpiderBane. Here are the relevant factors (at least for my character). 1) Pai'Na is a druid (or at least claims to be). That means she is True Neutral in alignment. 2) Despite being a half-drow under the Graveyard District, she makes it very clear that she and Bodhi are NOT friends in any way. 3) She points out that killing all the spiders will allow the population of other vermin to increase (since the spiders won't be around to eat them). 4) On the downside, she has several citizens trapped in the web in her hive to serve as food for her young spiders. According to her, it is "proper justice" for their crimes against spiders. I am playing a NG Skald. The first time I entered the hive, I went ahead and attacked Pai'Na and her spiders (since I had just been attacked by several other spiders before entering. But then I reconsidered the info she gave me and decided to see about retrieving this weapon she wants - which brings up another problem. According to Pai'Na, the SpiderBane sword is being used by workers in the Sewers under the Temple District, but I've searched through there several times and found NOBODY!!! (well, I found Keldorn and allowed him to join my party, until we discovered the problems he had at home - then I released him from my service). So - does anybody know WHERE or WHEN these workers show up with the sword?

Really? I didn't even know this quest existed. Fact is, whenever I entered her lair she always attacked me...

[Armen]

it's added by the Unfinished Business mod i think

[Jerr Conner]

Originally posted by ElfBane: I think that the term "Thieves Guild" is romanticizing crime. Anyone that has gotten the guild from Mae'Var soon finds out that this is not just a *second story* outfit. The "thieves guild" is organized crime..the Mob. They are involved in extortion, blackmail, robbery, murder, protection rackets, and slaving. As soon as I saw what was REALLY involved, I let the guild lapse back to Renal, and went about my normal *taking things that don't belong to me*,, ordinary theft. Also,, does anyone here manipulate rep in order to keep npc's quiet? Inquiring minds want to know!! I'll kill a random noble that pisses me off just to lower rep and shut the npc's up.

Well, considering you can choose how your guild is run, then you can choose not to extort, blackmail, slave, and murder.

You just have to pay out of your pocket if you make less money.

However, whenever I play the Thief Stronghold, I think like a thief.

If someone is being blackmailed by thieves, then it's most likely on a level of what we thieves do. Most likely they deserve it.

Taking things that don't belong to you is robbery, so I see nothing wrong with allowing the thieves to steal.

Extortion, I extort from people who deserve it. Those who think they're better just because they were born into a household that happens to be rich and priveledged.

Slavery is wrong and I won't have my thieves doing it. Though I think it'd be cool if someone made a mod where you suggest that the thieves transport slaves once just to show you where it's happening so you can personally stop it.

Other than that, the only thief NPC in my stronghold who is ever unhappy is the Protection Racket girl as I never have her doing anything challenging. Ok, sometimes I do just to shut her up...

[shamrock_uk]

@Cerek - the workers are in the corridor on the very left hand side of the map. You'll stumble across them doing the troll quest from Roger the Fence (just to help give you directions) - go left and then north from him, but before you get to the left-hand turnoff for the troll you have to pass through a circular junction room. The workers are on the left hand side of the circle.

[ 01-21-2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]