The American Constitution

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: yorick, you used to be an inmate??? or there is something i dont know, given that you used to live in a penal colony? anyways, i wasnt going to post in this topic, cause my viewpoint is kind of in the middle. i dont like the govt banning things but im also not very fond of guns. but from where i come from (argentina) they are perfectly legal to carry and in the country, where i have relatives, everybody has them. so i dont know, i think its ok to have them as long as they are not ridiculously high powered (like having a submachine gun). what i do have a strong opinion is against racism. the fact that someone cant have an opinion because is not a national of a country is so full of shit, i cant even begin to dig into it. racism is a scourge, it always appears when least expected.

Umm.... not to put to fine a point on it, but racism and nationalism are two different things. I'm not saying MagicK was right, but it's not racist to dislike or disagree with someone for being from another country: at worst, it's xenophobia.

Personally, I cannot see taking umbrage with criticisms regarding American laws, as the one thing that truly unites Americans is our right to open discourse. We all agree on that, as MagicK admitted. But, he feels the discourse is only open for Americans - and in truth, the US Constitution only applies (in its fullest) to US citizens. My opinion is that, if we are so open-minded, why shouldn't we hear critical views from all nations?

[img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Oh, the penal colony thing was a jibe, as Austrailia started out as a penal colony. Just like Georgia and South Carolina.

[ 10-22-2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[*\Conan/*]

Hi!
Here is a web site you may be intrested in looking at---> http://www.jgsales.com/FOUNDINGFATHER.html

*\Conan/*

[Timber Loftis]

Great site, and great quotes. I must say that I'm suspect regarding one big presumption of the forefathers: that an armed populace would always overwhelm the government in times of need. I worry that in the modern day this is not the case. Especially since there are whole classes of arms open to the government that average individuals cannot afford and are not permitted to own. 20mm Autocannons with an "indiscresible" rate of fire sorta take the sails out of the notion that we can all grab our revolvers and march on Washington if the government gets too far out of line.

Not like I expect marshall law to be instituted anytime soon, I'm just sayin'.

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: yorick, you used to be an inmate??? or there is something i dont know, given that you used to live in a penal colony? (edit) what i do have a strong opinion is against racism. the fact that someone cant have an opinion because is not a national of a country is so full of shit, i cant even begin to dig into it. racism is a scourge, it always appears when least expected.

LMAO!!!! Thanks Norom, I, and this thread in general, needed that! The penal colony reference is to Yorick's origins in Australia, which was originally established as a British penal colony... a fact which some people apparently think is a smirch on one's lineage or something, although I have yet to meet anyone who truly gives a diddly-damn about it. Or perhaps Yorick has lived in an all-male nudist establishment, but I rather doubt that...
As for racism, I think what you are referring to would be considered nationalism rather than racism. Still a discriminatory outlook rooted in ignorance and fear, but one of a slightly different flavor. Zealotry is for people who do not understand the foundations of their beliefs. Much as a person of faith invites discussion to temper and strengthen their beliefs so should we invite commentary to temper and strengthen our nation.

p.s. Norom, please don't think I was laughing at you, I just found the whole misunderstanding to be funny, especially imagining Yorick in a penal colony...

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Absynthe: quote: Originally posted by norompanlasolas: yorick, you used to be an inmate??? or there is something i dont know, given that you used to live in a penal colony? (edit) what i do have a strong opinion is against racism. the fact that someone cant have an opinion because is not a national of a country is so full of shit, i cant even begin to dig into it. racism is a scourge, it always appears when least expected.

LMAO!!!! Thanks Norom, I, and this thread in general, needed that! The penal colony reference is to Yorick's origins in Australia, which was originally established as a British penal colony... a fact which some people apparently think is a smirch on one's lineage or something, although I have yet to meet anyone who truly gives a diddly-damn about it. Or perhaps Yorick has lived in an all-male nudist establishment, but I rather doubt that...
As for racism, I think what you are referring to would be considered nationalism rather than racism. Still a discriminatory outlook rooted in ignorance and fear, but one of a slightly different flavor. Zealotry is for people who do not understand the foundations of their beliefs. Much as a person of faith invites discussion to temper and strengthen their beliefs so should we invite commentary to temper and strengthen our nation.

p.s. Norom, please don't think I was laughing at you, I just found the whole misunderstanding to be funny, especially imagining Yorick in a penal colony...[/QUOTE]ROTFLMAO... thanks for the clarification. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

ok... now i get it. somehow yorick didnt match my conception of a former inmate. or maybe he did. and yes, it was nationalism or xenophobia what i was talking about. my mistake.

[ 10-22-2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: norompanlasolas ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Great site, and great quotes. I must say that I'm suspect regarding one big presumption of the forefathers: that an armed populace would always overwhelm the government in times of need. I worry that in the modern day this is not the case. Especially since there are whole classes of arms open to the government that average individuals cannot afford and are not permitted to own. 20mm Autocannons with an "indiscresible" rate of fire sorta take the sails out of the notion that we can all grab our revolvers and march on Washington if the government gets too far out of line. Not like I expect marshall law to be instituted anytime soon, I'm just sayin'.

I tend to agree with you, but this stupid Sniper in DC seems to be doing a bang up job of it!

GRRRR!!!! I forgot to finish the font color! Sorry about that!

[ 10-22-2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Absynthe: quote: Originally posted by norompanlasolas: yorick, you used to be an inmate??? or there is something i dont know, given that you used to live in a penal colony?

LMAO!!!! Thanks Norom, I, and this thread in general, needed that! The penal colony reference is to Yorick's origins in Australia, which was originally established as a British penal colony... a fact which some people apparently think is a smirch on one's lineage or something, although I have yet to meet anyone who truly gives a diddly-damn about it. Or perhaps Yorick has lived in an all-male nudist establishment, but I rather doubt that...[/QUOTE]hahahahaha - hahahaha Penal Colony. ROFLMAO [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] *does best Beavis and Butt-Head laugh* Huh... Huh... huhuhuhuh ... yeah huhuh yeah.

[antryg]

I realize that I'm coming into this thread very late but would still like to "enter the fray". Yorrick, it appears to me that all you really wanted to do was talk about gun control. When I read the threads header I was really hoping for a talk concerning the U.S. constitution. The idea of getting international input appealed to me. For those who have made comments concerning how Christians could allow guns I would refer you to Thomas Aquinas "Doctrine of Justified Warfare". This doctrine also provides the moral framework for individual reponse to violence as well as govermental action. You might also look at the writings of Karl Barth whose interpetation of "who is my neighbor" not only gave a moral Christian reason for American intervention in WW2 but such humanitarian efforts as international disaster relief as well as UN peacekeeping efforts throughout the world. If you want to talk theology feel free to pm me. As to the debate on gun control, I will agree with what Timber Loftis has stated: If you let me define what the words mean I'll win every arguement. Untilsomeone on this thread offers a definition of freedom, security, etc. that we all will agree with then all that can be done is everyone expressing their opinion. The question then becomes "Did anyone understand the meaning of what I said?".

Originally posted by antryg: As to the debate on gun control, I will agree with what Timber Loftis has stated: If you let me define what the words mean I'll win every arguement. Untilsomeone on this thread offers a definition of freedom, security, etc. that we all will agree with then all that can be done is everyone expressing their opinion. The question then becomes "Did anyone understand the meaning of what I said?".[/QB]

In A purely Legal Sense, I don't think There is a Right under the US constitution for individuals to own a gun.
claims of a Second Amendment _right_ to _own_ guns have typically met with universal rejection by courts that have considered them.

Courts have often held that the 2nd Amendment's purpose was to guarantee the integrity of militias organized by the states, not to confer an individual right to firearms. Any rights created by the 2nd Amendment have not been applied to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment, the source of the enforceability of portions of the Bill of Rights against the States.

"The militia was or is a group of citizens volunteering or legally compelled to turn out for active military service upon order of the several States. For purposes of federal law, it is defined as all males between the ages of 17 and 45 who are or intend to become citizens." [10 U.S.C. 31]

the Federal Government has authority to prescribe rules and regulations for any militia. If you were to claim that everyone is in the milita, and therefore can own a gun, these arguments are unavailable to women, or to senior citizens.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: hahahahaha - hahahaha Penal Colony. ROFLMAO [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] *does best Beavis and Butt-Head laugh* Huh... Huh... huhuhuhuh ... yeah huhuh yeah. [/QB]

Ha-ha-ha-ha, he said "penal" ha-ha-ha-yeah, yeah

*having been exposed as a Beavis and Butt-head fan, Absynthe's credibility is down the loo...*