Survey of 44 nations shows growing discontent over U.S.

[Gammit]

Originally posted by Grungi: omg your supporting that whole coffee thing? dont you understand the whole point is 500,000 for a bit of hot coffee thats the perceived problem and that in itself means the next judge along thinks its okay to hit people with prices like that regardless of anything else, its stupid and out of control and proportion, you seriously believe some hot coffee is reason for 500,000 in court, your a lawyer then im guessing in need of work. gammit i cannot help but put that (america with the arrogant attitude was badly phrased, it was the guy i was replying to with the arrogant attitude and he happens to be american)... unfortunately im afraid the problem lies with the american arrogance thats the main reason people like me dont like em, but for that id like em, so stop the arrogance that your the best blah blah blah bollocks, and everyones happy. (btw when i say YOUR i mean ANYONE that is being arrogant that is NOT all americans, just the ones who are being, thats the people im having a go at, not anyone else)

I too disagreed with the McDonald's Hot Coffee issue for the EXACT same reasons until I had my sister-in-law (yes, also a lawyer) explain it in a different view. Now I understand.

Thank you for clearing up your opinion on the whole "American Arrogance" issue. I feel much better! For the sake of friendliness, perhaps not using phrases like "them" (referring to all Americans) would help your arguments. Even if you clarify later (which you did) by saying you only meant certain individuals, it's still going to spark some anger, as the FIRST thing everyone reads will be a generalization.

[Borvik]

I'm not sure if I missed something. But the article is talking about DISCONTENT about the US. Now almost everybody is talking about DISLIKING the AMERICANS or EUROPEANS or whoever...
There is a difference between dislike and discontent, isn't it? Same applies to america/americans (or europe/euopeans).

[Gregster]

OKay, there's a lot to cover here-- I'll try and make it brief, and I apologize if I restate anything:

1. One should never put too much stock in surverys. Bill Clinton tried to trim the sails of the national ship of state by taking surveys and then redirecting the government in whatever direction that survey said it should-- based on the fleeting whims, fancies, and moods of a bunch of people who were polled who were-- quite frankly-- no smarter or better-informed than any of us and still-- quite frankly-- in many cases dumber than most of us.

2. We're talking about a survey of 38,000. I did the math, people: 38,000 people out of the 5,000,000,000 believed to be walking the planet is .0000076% of the world's population. As a sample, this is about 1/1,000,000th more than what we would call "nobody." This is what's known as "statistically insignificant, a.k.a. "emprirically menaingless," a.k.a. "It don't mean nuthin'." And there's no mention of the data collection methods used-- did they go to all the Lefty coffeehouses in Europe and take a poll? I'd not go reading into the results of this thing.

3. Why should I care if there's growing discontent towards the US? Am I gonna get my ass kicked walking down the street by some angry European? Besides, as long as I can remember, I've been hearing about the tide of world opinion has been turning against the US. It's been turning, according the pundits, since...I reckon for as long as I can remember. 25 years at least-- EVERYONE should hate us now. Of course, I'm sure these are the same sort of pundits who predicted the past half-dozen times that the "Arab World" was turn vicious against the US because of our policies, based on the Pan-Arab notion that everyone with a scarf from North Africa to Nepal is super-tight and loves each other. Those of us who follow history, and who know actual Arabs, knows they can't stand each other.

I'll just take a tip from the French-- nobody likes them, and they don't care.

4. I'll bet, discontent or no discontent, that the rest of the world takes our money and other forms of aid no matter what we do.

5. Did I mention that I don't give a flying f*** about world opinion? Just wanted to make sure I point that out-- cannot possibly state that enough.

6. I notice the "it's about oil" argument came up again. It's one thing to say the the effort to liberate Kuwait in -91 was about oil-- it prolly was, for the most part. But thew war against the Taliban, Al Queda, and Iraq is all about oil? Ya gotta admit, the fanatics did us a real favor by slaughtering thousands of Americans and vowing to do more of the same and give us this tidy excuse to start taking over all the oil. How nice of them.

Regarding Iraq-- yes, we're worried about them attacking their neighbors because this would disrupt the oil supply more than we're likely concerned about the welfare of all the Arabs who are supposedly poised to turn against us at any moment. Can anyone tell me why this is so awful? Capitalist greed aside-- I am aware that oil = money for a lot of people-- what are we supposed to run the country on? Good luck maintaining a strong economy and ready military with no fuel. And last time I checked, my Euro friends on the other side of the pond, you guys put gas in your cars just like we do. Yeah, you've got much better public transport and could get by-- nevertheless, if a guy like Saddam has sway over enough oil, you can kiss your comfort and security good-bye.

If someone was ready to take over the part of the world that produces all the air and clean drinking water, would people cynically piss and moan that our foreign policy is "all about the air and water"?

[Attalus]

So, let me get this straight, Gregster. You don't care about world opinion? Be careful, the Arab Street rises up against people who don't care about world opinion.
EDIT: Here's a great story on pro-U.S. opinion in Turkey.

[ 12-14-2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

[johnny]

Then again...who cares about the Arab Street ?

[Bardan the Slayer]

Whoah, I post here, go away for a few days and find that the discussion has veered wildly from opinions on the US, to opinions on US citizens (a very different thing), to ... erm ... coffee?

Barden, I must say I'm a bit flabbergasted and insulted. But, I understand everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion... I dunno. Well, what one man's truth is another man's lie. Not that I COMPLETELY disagree with you, but even a government skeptic like myself doesn't believe that this is entirely about oil. Again, each to his/her own.

Hmm ... this seems like a good time for me to restate something about my views. I am rather sceptical about government in general, and my (admittedly limited compared to some) study of world powers both past and present has taught me one lesson. Governments of powerful countries are scum. It really is the truth. I'm not talking about the individuals in the government, or even any particular government. The thing is, they are elected to do what is best for their country, and this is what they do. Actually, they do it very well, with an astounding lack of scruple. Every world power got there and stayed there through robbery, murder and exploitation.

Now, it is certainly the case the in this slightly more enlightened age we fall short of invading other countries for purely territorial reasons, but Western Governments have helped rig elections, topple governments, sponsored terrorism against non-cooperative states and generally done things that would make us go pale with shock if we knew the details.

The thing is, this isn't unique to America, or even to the Western World. Everybody does it. Face it folks, on a governmental level, the world is a sucky sucky place full of plotting, intrigue, murder and other unwholesome acts.

The one thing we have to be careful not to do, though, is assume that just because a government does evil things (and they all do, and have done since the dawn of time) that the populace must be equally as despicable. I knwo many Americans, and as remarkeable as this may seem, they are exactly the same as Europeans in the proportion of them that are smart/dumb, nice/a******s, sane/nutters. Americans really aren't different from Europeans. I just believe that one of the few differences is that Americans en masse tend to genuinely believe that their government is some altruistic being, dedicated to bringing peace to the free world. Us Europeans, however, seem to have the more grounded view that our governments are doing what we elected them to do - look out for #1.

Like I said, i have no problem with the West invading Iraq to get their hands on/stabalise the situation with the oil. It'll certainly be alot better for us. As Gregster said, even if that was the only motivation, what fundamentally is wrong with wanting to take control of a valuable resource away from a total nutter like Saddam and keep it for ourselves? Nothing. But that's what it's about folks. No fight for freedom. No quest to civilise the world. Nobody riding a white horse to the rescue of an opressed people (though that would be a nice side-effect). Just about every government doing their job and looking to secure as much power as they can for themselves.

The American government has done really evil things. That's partly why America rules the world now. The Brits did the same when we ruled the world, as did the Romans, the Mongols and just about everybody else (we've all had our turn). This, however, doesn't make american people bad, any more than it makes British poeple bad. I just like to be careful to state that no matter what I accuse the American government of doing, everybody else would have done it first if we could have, and it has no bearing on my feelings towards Americans who are generally a pretty decent bunch

[Gregster]

Originally posted by Attalus: So, let me get this straight, Gregster. You don't care about world opinion? Be careful, the Arab Street rises up against people who don't care about world opinion.

Yep...caught a couple o' them-there Arab Street critters rising up through the floorboards. Had to stomp on 'em.

Of course, I suppose that it will be pointed out once again (as it has been exhaustively, here and elsewhere) that we should be fawning with overweening concern for what others in the world community think. Well, how many of you individuals reading this allow your compass of right and wrong be directed (more than perhaps a little bit) based on what others in your own individual local community think?

If some guy is pacing outside your yard shirtless and drunk and egging you on to come out before he comes in there after you, and the cops are taking their time showing up, and you feel you're in danger...are you gonna stand still and take a beating instead of hit the stupid s.o.b. with a bat because your neighbors are calling you and saying that they would look unkindly on you beating someone within the neighborhood up without their consent?

"We don't want you to unilaterally beat the cowboy crap-ola out of your neigbhor down the street, Greg. We wanna discuss this awhile, gather the evidence, then decide which one of us is going to go over and help you beat him, and how many times each person plans to hit him, and what we're gonna do once he's good and beaten up. This has gotta be a team effort, ya know. Mr. Germany across the street is screaming that he's against any beatings, but we think he's only doing it to please the wife and will change his tune once he gets some play in a couple weeks. And the Frances around the corner are claiming that you only wanna beat him up so you can have an excuse to move your split-rail fence 15 feet further into his yard you've been claiming is yours since the grass-cutting dispute 11 years ago."

Sound silly? Of course it does.

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: Whoah, I post here, go away for a few days and find that the discussion has veered wildly from opinions on the US, to opinions on US citizens (a very different thing), to ... erm ... coffee? quote: Barden, I must say I'm a bit flabbergasted and insulted. But, I understand everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion... I dunno. Well, what one man's truth is another man's lie. Not that I COMPLETELY disagree with you, but even a government skeptic like myself doesn't believe that this is entirely about oil. Again, each to his/her own.

Hmm ... this seems like a good time for me to restate something about my views. I am rather sceptical about government in general, and my (admittedly limited compared to some) study of world powers both past and present has taught me one lesson. Governments of powerful countries are scum. It really is the truth. I'm not talking about the individuals in the government, or even any particular government. The thing is, they are elected to do what is best for their country, and this is what they do. Actually, they do it very well, with an astounding lack of scruple. Every world power got there and stayed there through robbery, murder and exploitation.

Historicly yes, presently no. You may be a bit too cynical about governments to give an honest and objective view. You completely discount all the good that many western countries do, from giving of foreign aid to disaster relief and recovery programs. Were the governments as brutal as you state, these efforts would be rare indeed.

Now, it is certainly the case the in this slightly more enlightened age we fall short of invading other countries for purely territorial reasons, but Western Governments have helped rig elections, topple governments, sponsored terrorism against non-cooperative states and generally done things that would make us go pale with shock if we knew the details.

You might be shocked at the true details of just what some of you are being protected from by your governments. For 10 years I saw things happen that never made the news, or if it did was grosly distorted and edited so as not to alarm the general populace.

The thing is, this isn't unique to America, or even to the Western World. Everybody does it. Face it folks, on a governmental level, the world is a sucky sucky place full of plotting, intrigue, murder and other unwholesome acts.

The one thing we have to be careful not to do, though, is assume that just because a government does evil things (and they all do, and have done since the dawn of time) that the populace must be equally as despicable. I knwo many Americans, and as remarkeable as this may seem, they are exactly the same as Europeans in the proportion of them that are smart/dumb, nice/a******s, sane/nutters. Americans really aren't different from Europeans. I just believe that one of the few differences is that Americans en masse tend to genuinely believe that their government is some altruistic being, dedicated to bringing peace to the free world. Us Europeans, however, seem to have the more grounded view that our governments are doing what we elected them to do - look out for #1.

Again your cyinicism may be a bit too acute to really give credit where it is due. The world isn't full of isolationist governments looking out soley for #1. We have alliances, and unions and treaties and agreements, we work together in many cases.

Like I said, i have no problem with the West invading Iraq to get their hands on/stabalise the situation with the oil. It'll certainly be alot better for us. As Gregster said, even if that was the only motivation, what fundamentally is wrong with wanting to take control of a valuable resource away from a total nutter like Saddam and keep it for ourselves? Nothing. But that's what it's about folks. No fight for freedom. No quest to civilise the world. Nobody riding a white horse to the rescue of an opressed people (though that would be a nice side-effect). Just about every government doing their job and looking to secure as much power as they can for themselves.

Trust me, it isnt the oil that is driving this. It is 21 missing suicase nukes believed to be in the hands of terrorists, it is certain knowledge of huge underground WMD facilities in the mountains of Iraq, it is the willingness of some regimes to use these WMD's against even their own people that has many a western government frightened. The UN is trying to deal witht he ikssue the way Chamberlain did with Hitler, the US is taking a bit more of a proactive approach.

The American government has done really evil things. That's partly why America rules the world now. The Brits did the same when we ruled the world, as did the Romans, the Mongols and just about everybody else (we've all had our turn). This, however, doesn't make american people bad, any more than it makes British poeple bad. I just like to be careful to state that no matter what I accuse the American government of doing, everybody else would have done it first if we could have, and it has no bearing on my feelings towards Americans who are generally a pretty decent bunch

We agree that you all are pretty much a decent bunch as well [img]smile.gif[/img] I just think perhaps you may be just a wee bit too cynical [/QUOTE]Appologies to those of you who have problems following this style of post, please disregard and tune into your regular programming station

[Grungi]

thank you mordenheim, agree 100 percent [img]smile.gif[/img] least it wasnt just me feeling like that, and to gammit, yeah sorry i just assume people know im not generalising, i always say i have plenty of friends in most countries in the world so i know what its like to live in peoples houses in other cultures religions and countries so i have a very broad view on the world that not many people gain (lived with muslims in morocco, americans in new mexico and california, germans, catholics in france etc etc ) i just dont state it well enough in my posts so people think im generalising, im not at all as theres alot of americans on this forum making good points and giving a good impression, conversly as you can see from the one attacking me unfairly and to the two people who supported him without again understanding where im coming from. well theres the bad side, i had what looks like two americans understanding my p.o.v and 3 not so the current majority are showing a lack of knowledge and incapability to read what im actually saying, not to mention the fact of the arrogance which another american has already pointed out (i assume mordenheim is american [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

Where i see this attitude daily is on www.fark.com a great site run by some really cool people with great attitudes but omg the forums actually enrage me sometimes because of the narrowmindedness and idiocy of the posters and the worst culprits there? americans. thats a fact and not a flame, go to the forum and see, a european makes a valid point which might be slightly dereogatory towards the US and immediately 10 flame kiddies will spring up with "yo momma" "■■■■ off you european loser" "our army would kick your armies arses" etc etc and oh boy does that tend to make us europeans annoyed, the other thing about fark is it posts alot of stories from the UK most of the americans read them and post "why do we care about this" wtf is that about??? do the europeans go on and post "why do we care about this" to american news stories of sport or the like? not once have i seen that in the whole time using those forums, yet alot of the americans who post there seem to think that anything non US isnt worth their time, that kind of insular attitude is what is unfortunately seen of them alot of the time online and sure puts me off even posting on there.

i certainly advise people who think im flaming here to believe im not and goto fark and have a look for yourself (no moderating on the forums there so anything goes) i like america, i like lots of americas, but i detest the attitude thats shoved in peoples faces from quite a few of the people that their way is the best way, their sports are the best sports, etc etc, this wouldnt be so bad if they were knowledgeable and considered other cultures , but most of them dont.

Which leads me to another question id like answered here, in the US when your taught say the history of the 2nd world war at a school level what are you taught? Most of the US people i know are taught pearl harbour and d-day onwards, is that true at that level thats what is taught?

when i learnt it at 16 i was taught all of those things and the more important things such as the nazi party rise to power, explaining why the war was fought in the first place, taught in depth about the nazi party leaders and their motivations, taught about the situation in england, in france, in germany, the way people lived their lives, taught about the 1st world war and how it brought on so much of the problems to create the 2nd..... well do you see my point yet? I was taught a very wide view of the whole situation so i can see it from every angle, but from what i know at the same age most americans are taught only things from the american p.o.v and that sets them up badly for later life i think because they have a very directed opinion which they think is 100 percent right. Im only using the 2nd world war as an example of this, but i honestly believe the reason for most of this flaming etc is because of a simple lack of broad eduation when younger. (im not talking about university level or beyond as thats more specialist)

Should be a topic in itself really and sorry to go on with this post [img]tongue.gif[/img] but id like to know?

btw i think my country is the best in the world with the best this and the best that, but i dont go telling everyone and i certainly dont go telling them why theirs is worse than mine (except in response never in attack).

Actually I think most public schools have pretty much cut all history classes, they have been replaced by more palatable and PC self motivational esteem classes and multi-cultural awareness classes. History is mostly being taught at the university if at all these days.