Taking out the trash in Yemen!!!

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by MagiK: You know, they didnt just go out and blow up a car, they have been watching these people for a long time, they chose a precise place and time to make the hit, it wasn't spur of the moment, don't you think that the idea of possibly killing innocents was a consideration in the timing? All I see here are people (not you specificly) Jumping to the conclusion that the USA just went out and willy nilly killed six random people. Why are you so ready to condemn and speculate against the US and not the terrorists? Why not call the victims suspected innocents?

MagiK, someone has already accused us of this, I forget who it was. I have already said that I personally understand the military might have been watching these people for a long time. However, that doesn't make it proof, and it doesn't make this the right thing to do.

Also, its unlike you to put your blind faith in your representatives... don't you want to see that they have proof? Are you really happy with giving the military the arbitrary power of life and death in this way? I'm not, as Spelca says, sorry but thats the way I am...

Originally posted by Spelca: For instance, if they would know a terrorist was in a car with some people somewhere in the US, I doubt they would blow up the car or shoot them all, because they would be afraid that innocent people would be hurt. But when something like this happens in the Middle East, it's okay for them to blow up the whole car. And that's what I think is wrong... Middle Eastern 'innocents'' lives are just as valuable as American, Swedish, etc.

you are making the assumption that these issues were not addressed, AND assuming a moral superiority that you cannot prove. You have no idea what was and was not known about the targets, you have no evidence whatsoever that anyone in that car was innocent, you are basing the questions on facts not in evidence, all really based on a reporters choice of wording.

Edit: You know the men and women who make up the CIA, FBI the US military, are regular people. They are not immoral uncaring unfeeling robots like they are shown to be in the movies. These people value human life as much as anyone, they are no different that you or I. Please do not be so hasty to condemn people for things you cannot prove. Unsubstatiated allegations is how they convicted the witches at Salem.

[ 11-05-2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Well, thats kind of my point. Because human emotions are involved this will have a tendancy to spiral out of control. The US wants justice for Sept 11th, but the more people we kill in response the more people who in turn want justice for their dead loved ones. Westerners aren't the only people in the world to feel grief, and the victims elsewhere in the world can't flick a switch on the side of their heads to make them think "Well, he deserved it so we shouldn't be sad or feel wronged.". As for whether or not I would feel the same... I honestly don't know. It's kind of hard to say. I'm not trying to preach over how people should feel, just pointing out that there will be a lot more to grieve about unless we stop this approach. Hierophant, I'm not so sure of your analysis personally. There are some groups out there who oppose the whole Western way of life, but how do they gain support? If Western nations like the US and the UK weren't so oppressive then they would have no support whatsoever. The groups rely on heavy grass-roots support, thats where we have to knock them out. We need to make sure people see these groups for what they are. They aren't a way out of poverty or oppression, they are a way to further it. People won't see that if what the groups say correlates pretty much exactly with what we are doing. This is a "Nested Games" situation here - not everyone is playing the same game for the same goals, and that is causing us to help our enemies.

Actually, a great many of the middle eastern governments provide schools for the more extreme of the islamic faiths/cults, they do this with the knowledge that by giving their citizens someone to blame for their own low standard of living (ie the decadent US/Europe empires) that the citizens will forget about the decadence of their own governments, the historical roots are there, but the entrenched goverments who amy secretly support these groups, or fear the ideas they bring, nonetheless help them come about to ensure the survival of their own power base.

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Hierophant, I'm not so sure of your analysis personally. There are some groups out there who oppose the whole Western way of life, but how do they gain support? If Western nations like the US and the UK weren't so oppressive then they would have no support whatsoever. The groups rely on heavy grass-roots support, thats where we have to knock them out. We need to make sure people see these groups for what they are. They aren't a way out of poverty or oppression, they are a way to further it. People won't see that if what the groups say correlates pretty much exactly with what we are doing. This is a "Nested Games" situation here - not everyone is playing the same game for the same goals, and that is causing us to help our enemies.

They gain from intensly focused propaganda campaigns aimed at the children the minute they reach school age and before, they gain support by sending people to live among us, to profit from our freedoms and liberties to send those profits back to their leaders. They profit from the west purchasing oil from them, they use the funds to maintain their opressive grips on their people all the while blaming the condittions on the west (even though the leaders are living in luxury) But you are right, it is a nested game and not every one is playing the same game. Politics in the Middle east are a gordian knot at best.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Listen, fellas, before we all go around passing judgment here, I just want to highlight to people who might find it difficult to understand the "callous attitude" that Americans might appear to be showing with respect to this issue. Those outside the US (myself included) do not and probably never will appreciate how 9/11 affected America and Americans. Irrespective of whether or not US policies stimulated the attack is irrelevant when it comes to trying to understand how Americans feel the way they do about these terrorists, and anyone who *might* be linked with them. It was their country that had its major landmark destroyed - the first time anyone's ever done it in US soil. Other parts of the world get blown up, but not the US - not until last year. Call it a loss of innocence. Australia is going through something similar right now with the Bali bombings - this kind of stuff happens in London, in Ireland, in Israel, in Italy - but not in the US and not in Australia. I'm not saying this to excuse a form of behaviour - but I would hope that by putting yourselves in these people's shoes you can understand, if not accept, where they are coming from.

to make a quick aside no ones attacked the mainland since before the spanish-american war (1890's)(which btw astarted over an american ship getting bombed) and we haven't been actually attacked since Pearl Harbor

[Barry the Sprout]

What I mean by it being a Nested game is that we seem to be thinking that the worst thing that could happen to them would be death. This is very far from the truth, thats the point. Attacking them is only going to make them stronger I'm afraid, for exactly the reasons you just stated. The organisations can keep a hold over society because what they say corresponds losely to the facts. The West does prop-up dictators, including in Israel, and it does promote cultural imperialism (as well as the good ol' fashioned kind too). So we can't get ourselves out of this hole by digging I'm afraid, we are going to have to find a way to break the strangle-hold these people have before we just kill them. There isn't a finite amount of people to kill, so we can't kill them and pick up the pieces later. We have to make sure there will never be any more of them first. Sorry, I just really think violence is the wrong move on all sides.

[Spelca]

Originally posted by MagiK: You know, they didnt just go out and blow up a car, they have been watching these people for a long time, they chose a precise place and time to make the hit, it wasn't spur of the moment, don't you think that the idea of possibly killing innocents was a consideration in the timing? All I see here are people (not you specificly) Jumping to the conclusion that the USA just went out and willy nilly killed six random people. Why are you so ready to condemn and speculate against the US and not the terrorists? Why not call the victims suspected innocents?

But if they had been watching them for such a long time, then why not capture them alive, or at least kill just those people of whom they were certain that they were terrorists? Maybe this was easier.
And I am not speculating against anybody... I think killing anybody unless absolutely necessary is a bad thing, and killing people you don't know are guilty should be avoided... There have been too many innocent people killed and too many civilian buildings destroyed in this war, and some people just don't seem to care and say it's normal... It all just makes me really sad.

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Also, its unlike you to put your blind faith in your representatives... don't you want to see that they have proof? Are you really happy with giving the military the arbitrary power of life and death in this way? I'm not, as Spelca says, sorry but thats the way I am...

You are right it is unlike me ot blindly accept things, and I am not here. You see I know exactly what kind of work goes into making a shoot/no shoot decision. I have faith that when it come time to pick targets and make the kill, that the best efforts of the people I worked with has gone into determining if this is the right thing to do.

In this case, I believe that they did their homework, they detailed the mission, and when it was time to put the strike package in the air, they waited till they had a clear shot that would get the intended targets and not do unnecessary collateral damage.

I guess what I am saying, is that when the chips are down, the people we have making these dicisions are good people and they are doing the right thing. If evidence comes to light later that they were not acting properly, I am also very pro-death penalty for people who abuse the public trust.

Thanks for not taking this stuff personally too [img]smile.gif[/img] I know I have been very ernest in my postings on this thread, but I am not trying to condemn anyones point of view, just to illuminate some other factors.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Spelca: For instance, if they would know a terrorist was in a car with some people somewhere in the US, I doubt they would blow up the car or shoot them all, because they would be afraid that innocent people would be hurt. But when something like this happens in the Middle East, it's okay for them to blow up the whole car. And that's what I think is wrong... Middle Eastern 'innocents'' lives are just as valuable as American, Swedish, etc.

of course you either didn't read the news story or are (probably)merely ignoring the fact that it said the suspects were being hidden by tribesmen these men even if they didn't actively participate DID know what the terrorists had done and were aidig them, which makes them guilty as charged.

Originally posted by Spelca: But if they had been watching them for such a long time, then why not capture them alive, or at least kill just those people of whom they were certain that they were terrorists? Maybe this was easier. And I am not speculating against anybody... I think killing anybody unless absolutely necessary is a bad thing, and killing people you don't know are guilty should be avoided... There have been too many innocent people killed and too many civilian buildings destroyed in this war, and some people just don't seem to care and say it's normal... It all just makes me really sad.

watching someone with a remotely piloted armed drone is vastly simpler than a live capture. In this case it was deemd appropriate to kill these targets rather than risk far more people to capture them

Edit: I realize not everyone is as comfotable with the idea that killing people is a good or necessary thing. So I cannot argue againt this on that account, I am not one of those kinds of people though.

[ 11-05-2002, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]