Famous Atheists

[Charean]

Okay... normally I wouldn't get into this thread, but I was wondering:

Aren't the 10 commandments only part of the whole list?

And don't they also have the one about no idols? That sounded more like a way of worshipping than moral compass type stuff.

I am spiritual, but not religious. Have never cracked open a Bible in my life. Don't know much about Christianity, except for my mom was raised Catholic. She went New Age. Haven't in my life seen a good role model for any religion except Buddhism and Wiccan.

I am very confused about Christianity, and am open to learning about it. My father was Jewish but didn't show me much about Judaism, so I don't really know much about that, either. I figure knowledge is a good thing, so I like to learn about the mainstream stuff, since most of my adult life I have been on the fringes. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Charean: Okay... normally I wouldn't get into this thread, but I was wondering: Aren't the 10 commandments only part of the whole list? And don't they also have the one about no idols? That sounded more like a way of worshipping than moral compass type stuff. I am spiritual, but not religious. Have never cracked open a Bible in my life. Don't know much about Christianity, except for my mom was raised Catholic. She went New Age. Haven't in my life seen a good role model for any religion except Buddhism and Wiccan. I am very confused about Christianity, and am open to learning about it. My father was Jewish but didn't show me much about Judaism, so I don't really know much about that, either. I figure knowledge is a good thing, so I like to learn about the mainstream stuff, since most of my adult life I have been on the fringes. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I thought when a Jew and a Catholic married, they exploded, sort of like matter and anti-matter .

On a more serious note. I have read that children that come from that particular mix, have a hard time with religious matters. You got a poor start on the whole issue

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Some very good points on both sides so far. And I find myself - surprisingly - right in the middle of both views.

Yorick - I'm not sure that I agree with your assertion about morals being strictly "spiritual-based" (or influenced). As I mentioned earlier, I have some very good friends that are very devout atheists...but they follow a very similar moral code as I do. Two of them were raised in "Christian" homes and spent their childhood going to church, but eventually rejected what they heard as making no sense to them...yet they are still good, moral men. I think it also has a lot to do with following the "Rules of Society". We have laws to protect the members of society and there are consequences for breaking those rules. Likewise, many similar "family/social heirarchies" can be found in nature. Elephants are the first animals that come to mind. Female cows help look after all the young, not just their own. The younger, stronger bulls form the first line of defense between the herd and a predator, and if one of thier number are attacked, the bulls will often risk injury to themselves to save the member being attacked. Granted, it doesn't happen everytime....but the same is true for humans. How often do WE help a fellow "member" when they're attacked?? Sometimes, but not always.

There are other examples. Wolves, gorillas, even ants have a highly structured society with each member knowing their role and performing it for the good of the entire pack/herd/colony. We are not the only species that thinks past it's immediate needs.....at least in my opinion.

Spelca - You are correct that you don't have to have religion to have a strong moral character...nor does having a religion automatically grant you one. Falwell and Robertson turned this nation's greatest tragedy into a soapbox to attack every single group THEY consider to be "degenerate". It was a vicious and cruel slap in the face to a nation that had just been "suckerpunched" by yet another group of "religious fanatics". Eric Robert Rudolph bombed an abortion clinic in Alabama, killing a security guard and maiming a nurse...again, in the name of his religious beliefs. The 10 Commandments are a good road map, but they are just the foundation on which the rest of God's Moral Structure is built. Jesus came to give us a real-life example of how God expects us to act. His examples of love, tolerance, and forgiveness in the face of persecution are shining examples of the goal God wants us to strive for in our daily actions.

Charean - Good to see you, my friend. Yes, God DOES tell us "not to worship idols" (2nd Commandment). What many fail to realize that "idols" are more than just golden calves or pagan images. It can be money, your job, a new car, that beautiful boat at the local marina....anything that becomes MORE important than God to His followers. God expects to be number 1 in the hearts of his worshippers. Anything else that takes priority is considered "idolatry". I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have...but you might want to do a PM or e-mail so that we don't "overload" the board with Religious threads again.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: There are other examples. Wolves, gorillas, even ants have a highly structured society with each member knowing their role and performing it for the good of the entire pack/herd/colony. We are not the only species that thinks past it's immediate needs.....at least in my opinion.

Um, Cerek.

Don't bring wolves into this, ok?

Anyone ever thought that maybe some people take religion too seriouslly? I mean, we are created (wether by god or chemical processes) with a sense of humor, and more than one religion say that we are created in Gods image, perhaps, we should allow some levity and relax into a more comfortable, one on one relationship with our creator and share the humor and light as well as the trials and tibulations with our respective Gods. Or am I the only one who thinks some religious types take themselves too seriously?

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: There are other examples. Wolves, gorillas, even ants have a highly structured society with each member knowing their role and performing it for the good of the entire pack/herd/colony. We are not the only species that thinks past it's immediate needs.....at least in my opinion.

Um, Cerek.

Don't bring wolves into this, ok? [/QUOTE]LoL beat me to it B-Man [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by MagiK: Anyone ever thought that maybe some people take religion too seriouslly? I mean, we are created (wether by god or chemical processes) with a sense of humor, and more than one religion say that we are created in Gods image, perhaps, we should allow some levity and relax into a more comfortable, one on one relationship with our creator and share the humor and light as well as the trials and tibulations with our respective Gods. Or am I the only one who thinks some religious types take themselves too seriously?

You're not the only one. I have a problem with ANYONE who takes themselves way too seriously, including myself at times.

-Saz

[Timber Loftis]

Cerek, I think it's important to point out that your version of the 2nd Commandment is perhaps more reaching than originally intended. True, the writing of Rabis certainly points out that an original concern of the people was "nature worship" that could be caused by nature's beauty. But, I think even at its broadest meaning, this commandment has been more concerned with other gods and godlike images than with "sins" that have a physical minifestation one can fixate on (greed/money, etc.).

Remember, the Torah was sacred and was actually carried around by the people for generations. It was all the written law they had, so its meanings were paramount to know. I think the only tension you'll find in the 2nd Commandment around ancient times is regarding religious art.

Try to remember how important this "false images" doctrine was to a fledgling religion. Yahweh was the "mountain god" (notice everything important in the old testament happens on a mountain) among a group of gods worshipped by several nomadic tribes. The tribe that made the worship of Yahweh their only faith happened to be the Jewish tribe, and the rest is history ... or myth... whichever. But, in the early days of the religious development of a peoples that were becoming more and more monotheistic, this was an important idealogical development.

from http://www.jewishsf.com/bk980320/torah.htm
*****************
Parashat Vayakhel notes that Bezalel was the grandson of Hur, a man killed by the Israelites for refusing to participate in the building of the golden calf. Employing the descendant of a man who objected to the fashioning of an idol in order to glorify God points to the tension between enriching or diminishing worship with art.

The Second Commandment reinforced ambivalence toward sacred art: "Thou shalt not make any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4). However, strict interpretation of this passage has waxed and waned over the centuries.

The Second Commandment alone cannot claim responsibility for restricting the development of Jewish representational art. Early nomadic Israelites accumulated few possessions because they constantly pulled up stakes and moved. But once Israelite society abandoned wandering, the exultation of God, centered in Solomon's Temple, allowed for massive works of art: 16-foot high cherubim (I Kings 6:23-35) and 12 cast oxen carrying a molten sea on their backs (II Chronicles 4:3-5, 9:17-19). However, the monarchy soon imported foreign idols, touching off the rage of the prophets who railed against such art forms (Hosea 8:4, 13:2, Amos 6:4).

Opposition to the foreign invaders translated into hostility to art. Thus, historical conditions, rather than any traditional aversion to art, often dictated the stringent observance of the Second Commandment.

Nevertheless, archaeological discoveries of early synagogues reveal a more lenient interpretation of this commandment. The artwork of the Dura-Europos synagogue, called "the Pompeii of the Syrian Desert," illustrates the later abandonment of a strict interpretation of the Second Commandment, allowing for freer use of human and animal figures.
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[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: Anyone ever thought that maybe some people take religion too seriouslly? I mean, we are created (wether by god or chemical processes) with a sense of humor, and more than one religion say that we are created in Gods image, perhaps, we should allow some levity and relax into a more comfortable, one on one relationship with our creator and share the humor and light as well as the trials and tibulations with our respective Gods. Or am I the only one who thinks some religious types take themselves too seriously?

I resemble that remark! . . . Erm... I mean *resent* that remark.

God created man, and man, being the perfect gentleman, returned the favor.
[Inherit the Wind]

[Ronn_Bman]

I can agree with that Magik.

I've always been taught that the good times are to be shared and are the most special times. It's nice to know God is there for us at all times, but if we only look to Him in the bad times, we aren't really following His will.

Due to our belief in an enternal afterlife, we should be the happiest people on the planet not a bunch of doom and gloomers!

[ 10-28-2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]