Missouri bans Gay Marriage

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Yorick: Not quite sure what bias you're bringing into this John, but it appears to be strongly defensively anti-Amerindian. Plently of emotive language. Not sure why you're arguing the point actually. Seems fairly straightforeward to me. Subsistence as a concept involves taking enough to survive, and ensureing survival is perpetuated by leaving whatever is not needed. Agrarian captialist city cultures have been known to dump wheat in the ocean and offer double beef cheesburgers despite all the eco-warnings that suggest less beef in human diets would be advisable for the planet. Kind of elementary. Growth doesn't occur in a vacuum, but is at the expense of something else. If you base your entire financial plan around sprouting new franchises everywhere, it's not a sustainable way to exist. Sooner or later every corner will have a macDonalds on it. What then?

I'm not saying growth occurs in a vacuum, in fact the exact opposite growth occur evrywhere. With the growth of man comes man's effect on the enviroment, ALL MEN throughout history have an effect on nature NONE have lived in the modern "in Harmony with nature" philosophy that is so domainate in the people of the western countries. In short that philosophy is a LIE and everything based on it is a lie. Last night there was a great show on the discovery science channel about the evolution of man. in less then 1,000 after the arrival of man to the land of your birth, several types of furry creatures became extinct, around 60,000 years ago. These are the first people to arrive downunder, the original aboriginies, the people that INVENTED sudsistence societies they killed off lots of animals(giant kangaroos, giant turtoses, gaint flightless birds). Same thing happened all over the earth, in the Americas the mamoths, mastodons, giant buffalo, saber tooth cats, camels all disapeared after man arrived, who were the men that arrived why it was the Indians.

I was alive when the first "Earthday" occured 35 years ago I remember it, I also remember the predictions of doom and gloom that were going to befall the Planet in the next 5-10 years. Guess what 35 years has passed no doom and gloom, we and the earth are still here and still going strong.

From what I can see it is mostly people of European decent living in concret jungles(excuse me concret rainforrests there are no jungles anymore ) using energy for their homes, movement, exsistance consumming natural resources, that are doing the most complaining/longing for a simpilar way of life, fine. Move out of the city sell all you have give the money to the poor, rip off your modern clothes, walk out into the wilderness pick up 2 rocks beat them together until you have a stone tool and start trying to live off the land. See how long they survive, don't come complaining to me when you/they start dieing off from stavation, dieses(sp?) The eveidence from archielogy(sp?) does not support the "they lived in harmony with nature" and thus were better people then us philosphy in any shape form or fashion. I don't know about you but I like pooping in a toliet, my ancestors crawled out of Africa and spreadout arcoss this planet dominating it just so I could drop a load in a porcilean(sp?) toliet pull a metal handle and send it to the sanation plant. I'm proud to be at the pincle of the top of the food chain, it sure as "Hale" beats the alternative.

Now having said all that, IT DOESNOT mean we should destroy nature, not that we could anyway, God/Mother nature/the Great Spirit/Gia/Querk of fate/whatever anybody wishes to give credit for this phsyical world we live in made this Earth a "Hale" of a lot stronger then we can even fathom. This planet has taken direct hits from asteroids that had many more times the destructive power of all our explosives(nuclear & non nuclear) combined and keep on going. It has taken ice ages, thaws, where the Entire ice caps were GONE, and kept on ticking. Every day the sun send enough energy on this planet to supply the current energy needs of the entire world fo 30 years!!!! And we think the little energy we use is destroying the earth, give me a break simple math debunks that excuse. 50 years fo man vs 50x365.25x30 of sun? There is eviedence the sun is burning brighter and hottter over the last 1,000 years. Now think of that!figure out the effect to the temperture of the earth with 30 years of energy hitting this planet every day and that energy getting hotter and stronger over the last 1,000 years. Look at that vast amount of energy vs. the amount we as humans cause. "Hale" there are enigneers on this board that work with bigg numbers and complecated math, get one of them to run the numbers see what they come up with then get back to me.
Are there things we can do to work better with nature? Sure there are! Should we? Yes by all means!!! It is stupid to take a dump in your kitchen. "Hale" I love to camp, hunt, fish, just plain walk around in the woods, I do it all the time. I apperciate(sp?) nature, I comune with nature more then I bet the vast majority of people on this board, or those dewell in cities on this entire earth.
My son-in-law and I are planing to go on hiking/fishing trips, where we drop the ladies off at cabin with a pool and restaurant all the comforts of home, hot & cold running water (for some reason the ladies of the Harris clan don't like pooping in the woods an using leaves go figure ). We will hike for several days fishing and enjoying the wonders of nature until we get back to the cabin.

I don't buy the They were better in the old days, if they were better why did we change? Beef hurts the human diet, tell that to the Atkins diet people [img]smile.gif[/img] . Cows fart to much methan(sp?) give me a break, there were herds of buffalo in the plains that numbered in the tens of millions of animals. Herds that were so large to took DAYS for the herd to pass by. Buffalo are larger animals than cattle, the larger the animal the large the fart. Now cattle are are keep in smaller herds spread out over a wider area, doing much less damage to the enviroment. Spreading out the smaller damage making it easier for nature to recover. The buffalo's hoves alone tore up the ground like millions of plowshears, leaving vast swaths of parrie ripped up and bare of grass. Nature took and said give me more!

All these facts can easly be found just by watching a year or so's worth of discovery/TLC/science channels, and realizing nothing works in a vacuum it all works together.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: [QB] Speaking of inane and/or mistaken comments... quote: You on the other hand seem to think that a persons sexuality is their total being.

[/QUOTE]Truth. You arguements have that effect. Your words, protestations and constant misinterpretation of my words indicates a perception that a person IS their sexual orientation. You have repeatedly failed to see any difference, any hint that the person is so much more than their orientation, or their gender.

...denial meant to cover over the guilt we collectively face due to the millions of children we have killed.

Oh yeah? What else is it. It certainly is denial. "They're not children, they're embryos". Total utter utter horsecrap. In one ward you have an abortion taking place, and in another a child YOUNGER than the murdered child is being treated for premature birth. They are children. Limbs, eyes, ears, brains, hearts, oxgenated blood, emotions. They are mammals. Any words otherwise are in serious denial.

For, what does it mean if they ARE children Chewbacca? What horror is that? What if you are wrong? What horrific catastrophy have we inflicted on the planet by destroying the lives of innocents before they even get out of the womb?

You HAVE to be right. I can be right or wrong. Hence the denial. Try and see it my way for just two seconds, and experience the grief I have for the planet when I conceive of the millions of deaths STILL GOING ON!

There is equality. Any man can marry any woman, regardless of sexual orientation, religion, race or handicap.

There is. Again. Truth. Are you suggesting I'm lying and that certain men are forbidden from marrying women based on their sexual preference?

At the end of the day, a same sex couple is DISADVANTAGED

[/QUOTE]

We are all disadvantaged in one way or another. We all have our pit, our mountain to climb. Some worse than others. No-one is preventing homosexuals from living together, from making life commitments to each other, from enjoying sexual relations. They can do what they will. The line is currently drawn at receiving the financial and social ENCOURAGEMENT reserved for a single man, and single woman who choose to cohabit together in life commitment.

But people can exist together outside of that definition without penalty.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I was alive when the first "Earthday" occured 35 years ago I remember it, I also remember the predictions of doom and gloom that were going to befall the Planet in the next 5-10 years. Guess what 35 years has passed no doom and gloom, we and the earth are still here and still going strong.

I guess you haven't heard of that little thing called the "hole in the ozone layer" which touches the bottom of Tasmania during winter.

Being from that part of the world and experiencing the far greater sunburn opportunities than exist up here, I can tell you there is a problem. SUVs and hummers driven by one person should be the first to go. MacDonalds double cheesburgers should be next.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Cows fart to much methan(sp?) give me a break, there were herds of buffalo in the plains that numbered in the tens of millions of animals. Herds that were so large to took DAYS for the herd to pass by. Buffalo are larger animals than cattle, the larger the animal the large the fart. Now cattle are are keep in smaller herds spread out over a wider area, doing much less damage to the enviroment. Spreading out the smaller damage making it easier for nature to recover.

This is quite plainly untrue.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Look, I haven't got anything against Native Americans, and sure as hell don't appreciate the implication that I do. I'm sure John D. feels the same way. What we (presuming he doesn't mind me putting words in his mouth) were trying to point out is that the myth of what the Native Americans were is not always accurate -- and history has been very kind in overlooking their faults and highlighting more of their virtues. We're just trying to make sure this very warlike culture which had many shortcomings, as all cultures do, is not incorrectly viewed as some sort of "perfect society."

Where did I isolate the Amerindian societies? I repeatedly said "sibsistence cultures". What is with the Amercentricity???? The world is bigger than America! Keep your problems with the Amerindians then if you must. Let's just say you're correct on every point about the Amerindians. IT DOESN'T CHANGE WHAT I SAID. Subsistence cultures at one point covered most of the planet. City cultures have only been around for 4000 odd years. If you're an evolutionist, then that's a heck of a long time for subsistence cultures to be getting it right.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I don't buy the They were better in the old days, if they were better why did we change?

I never said they were better in the old days. I enjoy living now. Somethings have changed for better, others for worse. Again, doesn't take anything away from what I've said. Some things now, could be better, some things have already improved. Doesn't mean we should rest on our laurels or stop learning from the past.

[Nightwing]

Yoric your all over the place! If you think children can consent to a parents need for a sexual relationship, you haven't had enough experiences with abusive families. Abuse starts very early on and clouds any childs judgement as well as an adults.

To argue gay marrige is wrong because you support paedophilia and incest seems shortsighted to me. I don't mean to be condescending it just sounds like you support it.

Maybe I missed it but you haven't given a reason why you think gay marridge should be illegal. Most people in support of gay marridge are in support because it is guarenteed by the constitution. I paraphrase when I say, no laws should be made to deprive people of their pursuit of happiness. Marridge is a legal right to all citisens of the United States who are of legal age to enter into a contractual agreement. I have not heard any argument for this ban based on anything but opinion.

Also, Native Americans don't need to build casinos and destroy the land. Not all Native Americans are conservationist just like any society.

Diversity is what makes this world great. You yourself said Gay people are fantastic people, why would you want to limit that resource? I agree with you when you say "people are more than Their sexual preferances" so why pass laws based on that preferance. There is nothing different other than sexual preferance when you compare a heterosexual person with a homosexual person. They can still have children wether they adopt or through artificial means.

[John D Harris]

Moved the subsistence to this thread: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cg...&f=27&t=001306
sorry about the Hijacking

[ 08-10-2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[John D Harris]

It this point gay marriage is only consitutional in one state under that states constitution. It is not found to be constitutional under the US Constitution as of the writing of the post. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Gay marriage is a right in 1 state. Civil Unions are a right in another, and that state's Civil Union law provides that every reference to "marriage" in the law shall apply equally to Civil Unions -- so despite the nomenclature, it is the SAME thing.