Roleplaying/Alignment Dilemmas

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Link: Cerek, Spider's Bane (which is the actual name of the sword, not SpiderBane) is part of the Unfinished Business mod. While we are discussing moral/roleplaying issues here the mod is not something intended by the original creators of the game. Maybe we should just stick to a pure unmodded game to get a clear view of what kind of roleplaying problems we can encounter. On the other hand, it is, after all, your party [img]smile.gif[/img] Frankly I think that the original Pai'Na herself imposes a good enough roleplaying opportunity. A half-drow druid who has set up a hive with spiders. You enter the layer and she attacks. Who are you to kill her?

First of all, the issue of Mods - I think enough members here have Mods installed to include encounters added to the game by them. After all, how many threads do we have about Improved Illyach and his crew?

As for Pai'Na herself, she does NOT attack when you enter the hive...she does make a threat, but if the PC doesn't attack, you can actually talk to her instead of fighting...and you still get to pick up the nice treasure off the floor of the hive.

While my character doesn't really like the idea of capturing humans to feed the spiders, he knows that a druid has to be True Neutral...so they most likely are guilty of the "crimes" Pai'Na accused them of. Whether their crimes are befitting of the punishment she is dishing out is another issue.

Thanks for the info on where to find the workers and Spider Bane. Any idea how long it takes for them to show up?? I rested overnight when I couldn't find them on my first trip and they still haven't shown up. And I'm STILL waiting on Kuriosan to come and try to take Celestial Fury away from me. (HA HA - my enemies are cowering in fear over the prowess of my Skald {yeah, right}).

Well, thanks for the info. I decided to retrieve the weapon just to see how it would play out.

[Riftmaker]

Cerek: Shadow Druids? Hello?

Besides, there's the whole issue of the importance food chain. IMHO, the only reason she could legitly be holding civillians is if they wandered into her lair to begin with...and the traps would've gotten them long before then.

So, she obviously kidnapped them without provication. The fact that she has a spider den associates her with Lloth in some way, and Lloth is an evil goddess if you didn't know that.

Also, in an adventurer's priority food chain (especially a NG's), people rank WAY higher than spiders.

So, now we have...

1) Half-Drow druidess kidnapping innocent civillians with no provocation

2) Half-Drow druidess with a spider den, obviously some association with Lloth (evil goddess)

3) People ranking way higher than spiders on an adventurer's importance chain (especially NG).

So, ideally you would bargain to bring her the sword in exhange for the release of the prioners, and her promise the she won't capture any more. Failing that, a NG character would try and free them, with force if necesarry.

[Malthaussen]

I also wasn't aware of the opportunity to question the fanatics. Every time I've played the game, any delay has meant fried Vikki. That does cast a different light on things.

As a minor quibble, the two "fanatics" who are armed and appear to be guards, I have always thought of as "fanatical guards." [img]smile.gif[/img] One doesn't exclude the other, after all.

I still wonder, though, how this execution could be taking place right in front of the prison without the acquiesence of the authorities.

On another note, and speaking of mods, I had to reinstall BG due to a HDD crash, and so I added the Baldurdash scripting fixpack, that is supposed to "restore the original" scripts in the game. When encountering Quallo, now, his text makes it much clearer that he is under some kind of domination and also that the CC is not a nice person. Makes it more palatable to kill the greenie.

As a final point, this discussion of laws and moral codes at times seems to be confusing real life with D&D, and vice-versa. Under the standard D&D rules, "following a moral code" has nothing to do with law or chaos -- only whether or not one obeys the law effects that. Of course, any DM who chooses may change this to fit his conceptions -- my campaign, which is getting close to 30 years old, has never had alignment rules of any kind.

Illumina -- thank you for the apology. Ego te absolvo.

-- Mal

[ 11-29-2004, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Malthaussen ]

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Riftmaker: Cerek: Shadow Druids? Hello? Besides, there's the whole issue of the importance food chain. IMHO, the only reason she could legitly be holding civillians is if they wandered into her lair to begin with...and the traps would've gotten them long before then. So, she obviously kidnapped them without provication. The fact that she has a spider den associates her with Lloth in some way, and Lloth is an evil goddess if you didn't know that. Also, in an adventurer's priority food chain (especially a NG's), people rank WAY higher than spiders. So, now we have... 1) Half-Drow druidess kidnapping innocent civillians with no provocation 2) Half-Drow druidess with a spider den, obviously some association with Lloth (evil goddess) 3) People ranking way higher than spiders on an adventurer's importance chain (especially NG). So, ideally you would bargain to bring her the sword in exhange for the release of the prioners, and her promise the she won't capture any more. Failing that, a NG character would try and free them, with force if necesarry.

That's basically what I'm hoping to do. That's why I said I was going to see "how it plays out". I'm hoping I will have a chance to trade the sword for the release of her "prisoners".

When I attacked her and the spiders the first time, the spiders killed civvies before I could even try to stop them. Even without that "player knowledge", each person is surrounded by a swarm of spiders, so common sense would tell me that a frontal assault will result in their deaths.

I'm hoping I can find this sword (the workers STILL haven't shown up ) and trade it for their safety. If not, then I most likely will go ahead and attack Pai'Na and try to kill her and her spiders.

BTW, good points about spiders being associated with Lloth. I wasn't even thinking about that. I'm not so sure she would qualify as a Shadow Druid, but that is another good point to consider. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Cerek]

I have a new Roleplaying Dilemma question.

I'm playing a game with a Neutral Good Kensai. The rest of the party consists of...

Minsc
Anomen
Jaheira
Yoshimo
Kelsey

So the party is definitely good-aligned.

I am working on the Slaver's Quest and found Quallo in the sewers. He told me of a blade and to look for the clues. I have found everything but the "blood of a friend". So here's the question.

My NG Kensai feels pity for Quallo and his existence. I've figured out that the "friend" is his carrion crawler companion. On one level, I can't justify having her and her party kill this pitiful man's only friend in order to gain a blade. On the other hand, Quallo seems to be resigned, perhaps even accepting, of his fate. He reminds me a bit of Reilev and I wonder if death would actually be a blessed release for him. Of course, I won't be killing him, just his only friend.

So I would like to hear arguments both for and against killing the carrion crawler in order to gain a sword. Chances are, I simply will not attack the crawler and will look for other swords, but would still like to hear the opinions of other members.

[Stratos]

My own input on your four questions, Cerek:

#1. I doubt there would be a moral justification for a NG character to kill Gethras. We don't know much about Gethras, if he's evil or more neutral aligned, and we're still talking about an assassination here. Roleplaying-wise, I don't think many NG players would kill him for Edwin (of all people), unless they were sure that Gethras was one wicked fellow.

#2. Good question. I don't know if there's a clause in Amnian Common Law that allows the burning of drow on the sole reason that they're drow, but I doubt it. And neither do I remember if Vicky's execution is by the full consent of the law; the guards probably just turned a blind eye. A lawful character willing to save Vicky could just ask the would-be executioners of her crimes and see if it's an actual crime or not by Amnian law. Further, the executioners refers to Beshaba. Now, if I'm not mistaken, that's an Chaotic Evil goddess so I doubt a Lawful character would want to see followers of hers performing public executions.

#3. A Lawful character shouldn't pay the fee as it is a bribe. The second question is a tough one. Ideally, Lawful characters shouldn't worry about killing attacking Cowled Wizards as they shouldn't be casting spells without a permit. Also consider that you get warned once before they attack you. Further, no matter how Lawful you are, the Cowled Wizards are the ones representing the law in Athkatla, not you. CW are a form of "magic police" operating with the constent of the Athkatlian Council (or whatever they're called).

#4. I don't see why an evil character can't have good characters in their party. It's more likely the case that good characters don't want to join a party led by an evil person. But I doubt any evil character with selfrespect would want Keldorn, Anomen and Aerie as his friends.

[Riftmaker]

1) There's a mod being developed to add another way to deal with Gethras without being "evil".

As for the CC:

Your PC would know from past experiences that CCs possess only an Animal intellegence (3 I think). This, coupled with the fact that all CCs you have met in the past have attacked you would lead you to believe that you should kill it.

However, this one doesn't attack you. You do know that the old man is being mind controlled by the sword, so you can't tell if the CC is really his friend or if it's just there to test your greed.

I suspect it was put there as an alignment test, and then forgotten. I honestly don't know whether an NG character would kill it.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

A good-aligned character could justify it by realizing that Quallo is being enchanted, and that while killing the crawler might cause him momentary pain, it is a needed step in breaking the spell.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: A good-aligned character could justify it by realizing that Quallo is being enchanted, and that while killing the crawler might cause him momentary pain, it is a needed step in breaking the spell.

That's an excellent point, Illumina, and the primary reason I'm actually having a dilemma regarding the situation. I had already decided that I would not kill Quallo's friend just to benefit my own party with one weapon that may or may not be better than the weapons we already have (after all, my PC doesn't even know what kind of blade the reward consists of). But once she actually spoke to Quallo, she realized that he is little more than a vessel being controlled by The One (whoever or whatever that might be). So killing his "friend" and retrieving the sword might very well be necessary in order to break the enchantment and allow Quallo to be in control of himself again. Much like Reilev, his death or the death of his "friend" might be a necessary evil that would actually be welcomed (in the long run) by the recipient.

In the meantime, I've completed the Slaver's Quest and returned to the Copper Coronet for a much needed rest.

[Iron Greasel]

'Bout Quallos "friend"

Well, last time I was there I was playing a CG sorcerer with high INT and WIS.

Quallos speech made it pretty clear to me (NOT my char) that he was under some kind of domination. For a smart sorcerer it would have been even easier.

As they were under domination, they weren't really friends. They were just told to act like they were. No more evil than killing a wild carrion crawler.

On a purely roleplaying standpoint, your character does not see those colored rings which tell you if something is hostile. Most adventures would (probably) have assumed that a carrion crawler was attacking some poor man in his home.