Thoughts of a contemporary Athiest...

[Oblivion437]

Yes, yes I could. I follow moral concepts that wouldn't have to change if your God or Allah or Anamism proved right. Did the crusaders do something wrong? They defended the Byzantine empire in the name of Christianity, the religion was improperly used as a political tool. They were following your rules, just heavily twisted. Who said Temujin or Attila were wrong? Were we wrong when we screwed around in Latin America, for our economic interests. Which is what all this spirals down to. Attila from the Caspian and Temujin from Mongolia, it was due to economics and personal ambition. That's what EVERYTHING centers around, MONEY, in ancient times wars were fought over the basics, and still today it's the real issue at the heart of everything...

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by K T Ong: BTW, Cerek, I still miss the handsome Norseman in your previous sig.

Aaaah....you're sweet K.T. [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

He may be back someday. I just felt that I needed an "image change" due to my participation in the various Religious threads. My "barbarian sig" just didn't fit my POV, so I tried to find something a little more appropriate.

Still, If I can get Sazerac to send a copy of the image to me, I will be able to add it to my other sigs and rotate them out.

Sazerac has it because he was generous enough to make AND host the sig for me.

BTW, I like your definition of an atheist. I've seen that before. My memory fails as to the Christian definition using the same example, but it was good also.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Yes, yes I could. I follow moral concepts that wouldn't have to change if your God or Allah or Anamism proved right. Did the crusaders do something wrong? They defended the Byzantine empire in the name of Christianity, the religion was improperly used as a political tool. They were following your rules, just heavily twisted. Who said Temujin or Attila were wrong? Were we wrong when we screwed around in Latin America, for our economic interests. Which is what all this spirals down to. Attila from the Caspian and Temujin from Mongolia, it was due to economics and personal ambition. That's what EVERYTHING centers around, MONEY, in ancient times wars were fought over the basics, and still today it's the real issue at the heart of everything...

Well said, Oblivion. I agree completely.

Power, Ambition, Land, Money, GREED..... THESE are the true root causes for the wars and conflicts we have had. Religion was sometimes used as justification for these motivations, but it wasn't the true, underlying purpose.

[K T Ong]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: He may be back someday. I just felt that I needed an "image change" due to my participation in the various Religious threads. My "barbarian sig" just didn't fit my POV, so I tried to find something a little more appropriate.

You do have a couple of Nordic barbarians in history and literature who were (surprisingly enough) deeply devoted Christians as well. Beowulf was one, right?

[Melusine]

Originally posted by K T Ong: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: He may be back someday. I just felt that I needed an "image change" due to my participation in the various Religious threads. My "barbarian sig" just didn't fit my POV, so I tried to find something a little more appropriate.

You do have a couple of Nordic barbarians in history and literature who were (surprisingly enough) deeply devoted Christians as well. Beowulf was one, right? [/QUOTE]Not exactly... Beowulf the poem was written in a time where the Christianisation of Europe was still going on, and it has many pagan influences as well as Christian ones. There's even a school of thought that believes the Christian influences were added later on. Beowulf the character is not a deeply devoted Christian by any means: "Also, in the poem Beowulf partakes in many non-Christian deeds. He drinks alot and has a tendency to kill people and creatures. Beowulf also cares more about being remembered and getting treasure more that doing a deed for the charity of it. The fact that he wished to be cremated also suggests that he is a pagan.", though he can be compared to Jesus in his battles with evil, especially the last battle with the dragon/serpent (Satan) that killed him. So it's a mix.
That was the nitpick of the day
You're spot on about Norse "barbarians" who are Christians though [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-27-2002, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[WOLFGIR]

Erhmmm

Well some nordic barbarians were slayn as they stated they believed in the vite krist!

See the famous line of what happened to the first christians setting foot on Iceland, but later on ICeland turned into a very Christianed country. Here in Sweden the South parts and the parts around Stockholm were christiained but that was at the very end of the Viking era, ie not barbaric any longer in that sense since we then was an agricultural country that had progressed pretty far.

Also when the crusades took place, parts of Sweden were still "pagans" and not every place was safe to state once beliefs in.

So many of the barbaric christians in books are made up
Come up here and visit the museums in both Norway and Sweden and you will see alot of fun things!

The most common praxis was that most people prayed to both the Asa and God at the same time. Beowulf was however not one of these famous christians, he was more likely to accept both at that time.

[K T Ong]

Originally posted by Melusine: Not exactly... Beowulf the poem was written in a time where the Christianisation of Europe was still going on, and it has many pagan influences as well as Christian ones. There's even a school of thought that believes the Christian influences were added later on. Beowulf the character is not a deeply devoted Christian by any means: "Also, in the poem Beowulf partakes in many non-Christian deeds. He drinks alot and has a tendency to kill people and creatures. Beowulf also cares more about being remembered and getting treasure more that doing a deed for the charity of it. The fact that he wished to be cremated also suggests that he is a pagan.", though he can be compared to Jesus in his battles with evil, especially the last battle with the dragon/serpent (Satan) that killed him. So it's a mix. That was the nitpick of the day You're spot on about Norse "barbarians" who are Christians though [img]smile.gif[/img]

Dunno...there were points in this macho-man story in which the hero was supposed to have received help from God, if I'm not mistaken. But as you said, they might have been later additions. In any case, I prefer to see him as a Christian hero as that helps to soften for me what would otherwise be a 'macho-man' figure that's just too unbearable.

[K T Ong]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: So many of the barbaric christians in books are made up Come up here and visit the museums in both Norway and Sweden and you will see alot of fun things!

Yes, so there are many Christian(ized) barbarians in the world of fantasy, right?

And that's basically the point I was settling for -- that you can be a Christian barbarian, as least in the world of fantasy. And whose sig figure around here isn't fantasy-based? [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for coming over to Norway and Sweden, I have just a couple concerns. First, I'm apt to wonder how someone like me who's used to a tropical climate would fare over at your side; and secondly, are you sure I won't be charged by barbarians wearing horned helmets?

[WOLFGIR]

LOL, well to tell you, we don´t have polar bears, and it is warm and nice during summer, and winters here in the southern parts is seldom below 20 degrees celsius, usually in the cities around 0 degrees.

As for the horned helmets.. *sigh* hockey and fotball fans use them, the vikings didn´t except the chief over a village who COULD wear one for festivities. The germanic tribes had some horns from bulls since they thought they would gain the strength from them. Here the bear, the wolf and practical things i a fight wore of more importance. They learned that horns in helmets could mean your neck was snapped or tangled in the forrest etc etc.

The common farmer/viking seldom had a helmet at all, usually a cap of leather since a helmet was an expansive thing do make in thoose days.

You got clothes I guess? Then just dress and come visit!

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by K T Ong: Yes, so there are many Christian(ized) barbarians in the world of fantasy, right? And that's basically the point I was settling for -- that you can be a Christian barbarian, as least in the world of fantasy. And whose sig figure around here isn't fantasy-based? [img]smile.gif[/img]

That may be true, but let me ask this.....
Does the ID name Cerek the Barbaric promote an image of Christianity, especially when accompanied with a Sig with the name written in dripping blood??

I've become very involved in most of the Religious threads we've had recently and most people have been surprised at my attitude. One, that I was a Christian, and Two, that I'm respectful of opposing beliefs.

So, I decided I needed a Sig that promoted the image of Christ's love for ALL of us. I will be working on a different soon that I like even better than this one.

However, I DID get a chance to chat with Saz last night on MSN IM and he sent a copy of the famous barbarian sig to me. I will add it to my "portfolio" and it will show up again from time.

So - take heart K.T., he isn't gone for good.