Is it possible to know anything at all? - Page 8

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 08-23-2001, 01:23 PM

Melusine, my apologies for not being clearer. The difference between our points of view on this is actually small, if I understand you correctly.

I agree with you that we can certainly know that our conciousness, feelings, thoughts, etc. are real. However, in my opinion, this is all that we can truly be certain of. I am content with the world of subjective appearances -- I suspend judgement on whether there is some objective truth, some "real" world out there separate from and perhaps different from the world of appearances. Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't. As it stands, I have no way of getting behind the world of appearances to find out for sure.

That does not mean that the world of appearances itself isn't "real". On the contrary, it is the only reality we know for sure. All else, the possiblity of being a brain in a vat, etc., are simply irrelevant and unknowable possibities as compared to the very real world of appearances.

I hope that made sense

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 08-23-2001, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
I cannot remember the philosopher, but at one time is was written "How do we know if we are a man dreaming we are a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming we are a man"

I think this is why we have the reference to butterflys

That was the Chinese Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu. He was a favorite of mine in my radical mystic days

Cloudy -- LOL. It's always entertaining when people argue that they don't really exist

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 08-23-2001).]

Melusorick! · 08-23-2001, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
Melusine, my apologies for not being clearer. The difference between our points of view on this is actually small, if I understand you correctly.

I agree with you that we can certainly know that our conciousness, feelings, thoughts, etc. are real. However, in my opinion, this is all that we can truly be certain of. I am content with the world of subjective appearances -- I suspend judgement on whether there is some objective truth, some "real" world out there separate from and perhaps different from the world of appearances. Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't. As it stands, I have no way of getting behind the world of appearances to find out for sure.

That does not mean that the world of appearances itself isn't "real". On the contrary, it is the only reality we know for sure. All else, the possiblity of being a brain in a vat, etc., are simply irrelevant and unknowable possibities as compared to the very real world of appearances.

I hope that made sense

It did....thanks! Your point's a whole lot clearer now

EDIT: DAMN!! I can't BELIEVE it!! Posted this in Melusorick mode...hahaha

Sorry Dio, it really is me, Melusine

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Boo yah!!

[This message has been edited by Melusorick! (edited 08-23-2001).]

Gabe · 08-23-2001, 01:38 PM

Given that we exist and the world around us exist, does what we see exist. To carafy does the world exist as we see it or is it all an illusion created out of what our minds can consive of the world that really exists around us? if not what is it that exist that makes our mind tell us taht it doesn't exist, and if to us it doesn't exist to us do we exist to it therefore even though we exist to ourselves can we also not exist to another at the same time? -I think I over loaded my brain-

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The angel's MIA.

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 08-23-2001, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Melusorick!:

EDIT: DAMN!! I can't BELIEVE it!! Posted this in Melusorick mode...hahaha
Sorry Dio, it really is me, Melusine

Aha! Proof that Melusine doesn't really exist! Just one of several fictional alter - egos played by lord knows who

Melusine · 08-23-2001, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
Aha! Proof that Melusine doesn't really exist! Just one of several fictional alter - egos played by lord knows who

*cackles madly*

You can't prove that!!

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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH,
the HADB and the SPAE(Society for the
Prevention of Acronym Extinction) &
Official Entertainer Elf of the BG2 Bar

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

MILAMBER · 08-23-2001, 02:34 PM

This is why philosophy exists. Are any of us really here? If I turn my back do you all cease to exist? because you exist in my mind. There are so many things that we can't prove ie God. But it is a falacy to say that just because we can't prove it then it must be true.

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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)

Member of CLAN HADB

domingo · 08-23-2001, 02:39 PM

When I was in elementary school I used to wonder if I was the only actual person on earth and if everyone else was a bunch of Robots .... and my whole existance is some kind of practical joke .... its kinda funny to think about.

Kaz · 08-23-2001, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
Aha! Proof that Melusine doesn't really exist! Just one of several fictional alter - egos played by lord knows who

I SERIOUSLY doubt that anyone will get an alter up to over 1000 posts, so, Melusine, I say youre as real as anyone is around here. (trying to avoid starting another argument about reality)

Larry_OHF · 08-23-2001, 02:44 PM

The only thing I find disturbing about the whole topic is this quote...
Firstly, Obi wan is fictional... .
He did exist, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

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Devoted member of the Ironworks
Loyal guardian of the OHF
Member of the Ancients' club
Faith beset in The Rocks
(they show the way, you know...)

08-23-2001, 01:23 PM	#71
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown Banned User Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: ... Posts: 694	Melusine, my apologies for not being clearer. The difference between our points of view on this is actually small, if I understand you correctly. I agree with you that we can certainly know that our conciousness, feelings, thoughts, etc. are real. However, in my opinion, this is all that we can truly be certain of. I am content with the world of subjective appearances -- I suspend judgement on whether there is some objective truth, some "real" world out there separate from and perhaps different from the world of appearances. Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't. As it stands, I have no way of getting behind the world of appearances to find out for sure. That does not mean that the world of appearances itself isn't "real". On the contrary, it is the only reality we know for sure. All else, the possiblity of being a brain in a vat, etc., are simply irrelevant and unknowable possibities as compared to the very real world of appearances. I hope that made sense

08-23-2001, 01:38 PM	#74
Gabe Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: August 17, 2001 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 41	Given that we exist and the world around us exist, does what we see exist. To carafy does the world exist as we see it or is it all an illusion created out of what our minds can consive of the world that really exists around us? if not what is it that exist that makes our mind tell us taht it doesn't exist, and if to us it doesn't exist to us do we exist to it therefore even though we exist to ourselves can we also not exist to another at the same time? -I think I over loaded my brain- ------------------ The angel's MIA.

08-23-2001, 02:34 PM	#77
MILAMBER Lord Soth Join Date: March 5, 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,948	This is why philosophy exists. Are any of us really here? If I turn my back do you all cease to exist? because you exist in my mind. There are so many things that we can't prove ie God. But it is a falacy to say that just because we can't prove it then it must be true. ------------------ "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -General George Patton (1885-1945) Member of CLAN HADB

08-23-2001, 02:39 PM	#78
domingo Zhentarim Guard Join Date: August 11, 2001 Location: St. George Utah USA Posts: 331	When I was in elementary school I used to wonder if I was the only actual person on earth and if everyone else was a bunch of Robots .... and my whole existance is some kind of practical joke .... its kinda funny to think about.

08-23-2001, 02:44 PM	#80
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	The only thing I find disturbing about the whole topic is this quote... Firstly, Obi wan is fictional... . He did exist, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... ------------------ Devoted member of the Ironworks Loyal guardian of the OHF Member of the *Ancients'* club Faith beset in *The Rocks* (they show the way, you know...)

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