US taught a lesson....will it ever learn from it?

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Liliara: O-H M-Y G-O-S-H!!!! Someone please hold me back!!!!!!! (Don't want to get banned yet! Just became Drizzt!)

*Quickly whips out small red box with glass panel in front. There is a small metal hammer attached to the object. Takes the hammer and smashes the glass. Pulls forth a silver tray with the most lucious looking eclair ever made. Holds it up for Liliara*

DISTRACT---DISTRACT---DISTRACT



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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by skywalker: This forum has become very inhospitable to opposing viewpoints, especially if they're directed untowardly to US actions. Every one of these kinds of postss are considered personal attacks. Breath deep first. Mark

Yes. Current actions taken by the US are impacting and will impact upon the rest of the world. Given that, it is our perfect right, as global citizens, to make points about the validity and appropriateness of American action at this time. All points of view are valuable, surely? I am carefully reading the posts that have opinions different to mine. Often I go off and do some research, to see what the 'facts' are. (Always hard to pin down, as no-one ever puts together a load of facts for information without having some sort of agenda. Bias is inherent in all written and spoken material.) Really thinking about each other's views instead of doing the knee jerk reaction thing is good. (Hey, I'm not saying I do that all the time... Just saying I have done it, that's all....



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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: No, that isn?t what I meant at all. Sigh........ We need to go back further than merely looking at what you see on the surface. Question: Why are these people extremists? What makes extremists extremist? Do they come out of a vacuum? Question: Was their reason for carrying out the attacks merely because they wish people who do not want to join their faith to die? Question: Is Israel really at the root of the problem, and if so, why? Do the Palestinians have any legitimate grievances here that we might recognise, and even relate to? Question: Is the US really involved in Israel and Kuwait merely because they were ASKED? Question: Why might bin Laden and other Arabs, ?extremists? or not see the US as a spreader of poison? You?ve made a lot of statements here ? could you back them up, please, with some facts? (And Yorick, I?d be grateful if you?d keep out of this, at least until Prime2U has answered. I am genuinely very interested in why he has made the statements he is making, and upon the facts supporting those statements. I know what your opinion is. ) BTW, I'd just like to make it clear that I hold no ruth for the Taliban. Their record on human rights, especially towards women, is appalling. I am not arguing for the Taliban here. I am simply trying to move away from what I see as an extremely simplistic view of the causes of terrorism. Once you have posted your replies to my questions above, which will clarify your stance for me, I will post my own views on this topic.

Eek
Posting good evidence, backup and examples for this would fill a large book (in fact it's filled several) But I'll try to clarify on your questions a bit.

A large part of what makes extremists is that they follow the rules of their faith as it was centuries ago. It's easier for you to look this up than it is for me to write an essay on it (sorry). Why would they do this? It gives them a tremendous amount of power over others (for an example see women in Afghan.)
By sing this ultra strict view of their faith they can keep the populace tightly under their control, and keep out anything that may influence the people to rebel.

No, the purpose of the attack was to incite a war between Islamic nations and western nations, most prominently the US. THEN the corrupting non believers can die, or convert and follow their rules.

Israel is a part, but not all of the problem. And yes the Palestinians do have a legitimate claim on part of the ground that Israel is holding. It's a huge headache....the border was established, later some Palistinians didn't like it and attacks occured on Israel, Israel responded by attacking back and took some more ground while they were at it, and now the goal is for Israel to give that ground back to the Palestinians and have a peace, but the Palestinians won't all accept that and want more than that ground back. Again this would take way too many words to thoroughly explain.

In Kuwait, we were of course there (so were many other countries) for economical and political reasons besides just being asked. Any time a superpower, not just the US, does anything that drastic there are going to be several factors that it effects. However, once asked, there was really no way we couldn't become involved even if we hadn't wanted to unless we abandoned the rest of the UN to handle it on their own, so it's sort of a moot point.
As for the Israeli/Palestinian mess, there's no way we can get away from it, and we've tried to more than once. We nursemaided the Israelis after the Holocaust to get them on their feet again, and have acted as their big brother ever since. How could we not? After all that that people suffered in WW2. We gave them the means to protect themselves against a future tragedy such as that. But now if we try to walk away from the dispute we have cries from both sides to come and mediate. Every time we mediate a peace there the fighting just springs back up. If we don't come mediate they are angry at us, and if we do go mediate they are still angry at us. Lose lose situation and one the US would definitely love to be out of.

And for the last question...not many do, and for those extremists that do, it isn't just the US, it's western culture in general. The US just happens to be the most powerful and blatant example, and so the biggest target. There are a couple of reasons they hate our culture. From a religious standpoint...well I already described that earlier. The other is that western culture is a temptation to the populace that they are trying so hard to control with an iron fist. If they can keep the people from seeing how their life can change, they won't have the hope and motivation to rebel. Also, the UN won't allow the type of aggressive takeover and domination that these people favor, and haven't since WW2. There are many, many reasons that can be given here, and I'm not qualified to explain them all. I think that the US would see much less anger from the extremists if we would remove all of our troops from the middle east, take back the weapons in Israel, and turn the other cheek on any events that occur in the region. Then the genocide of the jews could be completed and many of the governments with leanings toward tolerance and leanings toward western culture could be annhialated and those country places under regimes like the Talibans. That wouldn't burdun us that much economically, the losses probably easily made up for in all of the aid moneys we wouldn't be expending. I doubt we'd even have an oil shortage as these new governments would happily take our money and get along with us great cause we let them do whatever. But the cost to our concience for letting millions of people suffer and die would be great indeed.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by AboveTheRimYo: DragonMage: Actually i take great pleasure in using both sarcasm & suttle provocation as a means towards drawing a response from my listeners (readers in this case), and frankly the vehement nature of some replies does not concern me in the slightest. . . . Again, thanks to all who have replied - youll have to forgive the gratuitous sarcasm no doubt, though i tend to find it helps keep life interesting.

Welcome to a fellow Aussie. I don't share your point of view, but I will certainly defend to the death your right to express it. This is the cornerstone of the concept of freedom of speech, as long as it is done with respect for others. It's always valuable reading these events from a different perspective, as it makes us think about, and either abandon or reinforce, our own.

One thing I WILL say though, is that you are welcome to express your point of view as long as you respect others. Expressing your point of view by flamebaiting other members in hopes of provoking them and getting the vehement response you are looking for is NOT acceptable here. This is akin to tossing a sputtering cigarette in hot dry scrub in the heat of summer. We try and keep this a safe and comfortable posting environment for everyone - that goes for people you may be trying to 'provoke'. They deserve respect too. Fair enough?

Just a comment to those of you who get frustrated at opinions like those of AboveTheRimYo and Diogenes: they are entitled to their opinions as long as they post them in a mature manner. You've all known Dio for quite some time now. His viewpoint will not change no matter what you say, so there's no point in getting upset at his opinion, is there?

Let's not revert to McCarthyism, serene in our own righteousness and all too eager to repress the opinions of those who don't agree with us. Other people have a right to an opinion - even if they're wrong.

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[This message has been edited by Memnoch (edited 10-10-2001).]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Prime2U: I've always thought the cause was pretty obvious... We are dealing is Islamic EXTREMISTS here...and their core tenet is...Either you join our faith, or you die. The US pisses these extremists off in many ways but 2 of them are.... 1. The whole Israeli thing. No self respecting extremist wants Jews to have any rights, nor that land. This dates back to Isaac and Ishmael, it isn't anything new because of the US. The US now is involved because they were ASKED (Kuwait cried to us for help too) and because of a host of religious issues and felt obligations. 2. The US promotes freedom of religion....man that has to be the antithesis of Islamic extremists, they don't even allow moderate forms of Islam! They've killed clerics with tolerant interpretations. Read sometime about how the Taliban interprets their faith. Extremists still hold dear to the old teaching of conversion by the sword. We are the ultimate personification of non-conformity to their goals, and we stand up for other countries that don't want to conform. And so, Bin Laden has used terrorist attacks, not for the damage the attacks themselves would do, because that is only minor. What he wants is for us to make a mistake in bringing him to justice so that he can incite a war between all of the Islamic nations and the western nations (read non-muslim, spreaders of poison in his mind). I am not anti-islamic by any means, I have several muslim friends. But extremists are a totally different story. They are nuts, and they don't care how much blood the world sheds, they would be happy if in the end only a fraction was left is all of those left were muslim.

WOW! Welcome to IW Prime2U! Heck of an entrance! Intelligent, well thought out, and fully aware of the relavent issues. Hail and well met!

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by AboveTheRimYo: More opinions and comments thrown in my direction i see! All are welcome as ive said before, allow me to respond then: DragonMage: Actually i take great pleasure in using both sarcasm & suttle provocation as a means towards drawing a response from my listeners (readers in this case), and frankly the vehement nature of some replies does not concern me in the slightest. Im not exactly sure how youve gained the opinion that im some kind of "propaganda expert" who thinks Americans are "weak-minded sheep", but its good to see your using your imagination in such an entertaining fashion for the rest of us. On the subject of propaganda however, i would have thought that bush's catch-phrase (sure to become his next election slogan) of "fighting for our freedom" was such a painfully obvious attempt to incite the patriotism necessary for a payback war (and its innocent casualties no doubt) - unless of course America has actually been invaded and enslaved by some sort of intergalatic race of muslim loving dark-jedi beings and ive failed to notice. Domingo - I hope your not referring to me when you suggest sympathising towards terrorists and their actions, as ive never done anything of the kind. 250 - Frankly, it seems you are too far gone already, and i see little point in trying to convince you of your own blindness the real situation. The sad part is that there are without doubt many other Americans with similar (limited) views, and to make matters worse you seem to take great pleasure in encouraging each other. Skywalker - How very true. Perhaps if they did, they might not bother attempting to convince everyone else how "right" they are about everything? Silver Cheetah - I agree, we do have a right to our opinions. A sad fact, but yes American policy does affect even those on the other side of the world, economically at least. Probably my main concern there is that a country which has so much global influence happens to be remarkably self-centred, and completely incompetant at learning to happily co-exist with those who hold different ideologies (communism for example) to the American ideals. Oh, i also love your logo btw. Prime2U - Well it definately looks as if you genuinely belive what youve written, very nice to know that someone does im sure. If your convinced that even the smallest portion of American oversees intervention is purely benevolent and performed simply to do "justice" (ive noticed that most Americans adore this word - perhaps since its often used to sanction many thoughtless actions, thus sparing attempts to consider later consequences) then you obviously understand very little of international politics. Of course, its a bit like the idea of a "socitey" where people live together and constantly help each other out of the goodness of their hearts. Strange how politicians of any country just dont seem to fit into that idealistic picture.... Prime2U - Funnily enough, i cant think of a culture on earth more "extreme" (or bizaare for that matter) that the US. As to the notion of islamists forcing people to 'join the faith or die' (remembering that historically islam has been the world's most tolerant religion) perhaps these people have been watching how Americans dealt with Communists back in the 1950s? Again, thanks to all who have replied - youll have to forgive the gratuitous sarcasm no doubt, though i tend to find it helps keep life interesting.

Hmmm...I've actually avoided asnwering the point of this thread. My apologies AboveTheRimYo. Mostly that's because of the deplorable arrogance you've displayed so far. You have the gall to sit upon your high horse and talk about 'blindness to the facts' and then make the absurd claim that the US is a bully. I think Prime2U made a rather eloquent response to that particular piece of drivel, but you, of course, disregarded it in favor or more sarcasm and blind judgementalism. For someone so obviously intelligent you display an astounding lack of understanding of the facts involved.

*Sound of 2 pennies hitting the table and boots stomping off*

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"



[This message has been edited by Nachtrafe (edited 10-10-2001).]

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: WOW! Welcome to IW Prime2U! Heck of an entrance! Intelligent, well thought out, and fully aware of the relavent issues. Hail and well met!

Thanks Nachtrafe. Just trying to add my view of things to the general pool of opinions

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: BTW, I'd just like to make it clear that I hold no ruth for the Taliban. Their record on human rights, especially towards women, is appalling. I am not arguing for the Taliban here. I am simply trying to move away from what I see as an extremely simplistic view of the causes of terrorism.

If I may...there comes a point when you just have to realize that there IS NO ROOT CAUSE OF TERRORISM! No matter how good things get, there will always be someone who is convinced that they are terrible. And as long as that person feels that way, and is willing to commit violence to "solve" the problem, there will be terrorism. I agree with those that have said that there is no way to solve the problem of terrorism(Yeah yeah, pick your jaws up...I'm agreeing with the nay-sayers). You can't wipe out the potential of people to cause harm out of stupidity.

So, since there is no cause, there really is no cure. But, that doesn't mean we should stop trying. I stand behind, and respect what my government is doing. They are doing their job. Destroying the enemies of the state. Protecting their citizens. And they should continue. We shouldn't quit because its unpopular with a minority of people. We shouldn't stop because some bystanders might..*MIGHT* get killed. Too many bystanders have already died. All we can do is keep trying, and keep fighting, and keep trying to mitigate the damage caused.

OK...I'm stopping now. My brain was mush about an hour ago, and so I hope this makes sense. Goodnight all.

SC, sorry for diverting your post, but it was an excellent springboard for what I was trying to say. Thanks.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Prime2U: Eek Posting good evidence, backup and examples for this would fill a large book (in fact it's filled several) But I'll try to clarify on your questions a bit.

Thanks for your response, Prime2U (interesting name!), - here's mine...

Re your first point – could you just type out those ‘rules’ are that you are referring to? I have looked them up, but it isn’t clear. Thanks!

As far as I know, the outrages and atrocities that are practised on the Afghani people by the Taliban are not rooted in Islamic law. However, as Christianity has done throughout its long history, it is easy for unscrupulous men to gain and keep power by a convenient interpretation of so called holy injunctions.

For the rest, ok, what you seem to be saying is that terrorism happen because extremists hate the west and the concept of democracy and want everyone to accept Islam.

My own view is that terrorism happens because people who are living in often appalling conditions throughout the world see the West (represented by America because it is the biggest and most extreme target) as being somehow to blame for their condition, and want to a. wake up their attention and b. make them suffer for their actions.

Now, does that view have any basis in fact or doesn’t it?

Well, take a look at Saudi Arabia. The regime there has no respect for human rights at all, and continues to abuse its people. Washington supports the regime in Saudi, and Arabs know this. Why does Washington continue to support a regime with so little care for human rights? It is asking for trouble. Saudis grow up under this harsh rule, - which their leadership blames on the West (thus diverting attention from its own role). Certainly the West holds a share of blame – for supporting the repressive regime in the first place. A breeding ground for anti-western terrorists, if ever I saw one.

In Palestine, the Palestinians know that Israel is nothing without America. The US provides the tools that the Israelis use against the Palestinian population. The creation of the state of Israel was accomplished under the rule of the gun and the bayonet, and Britain played its part enthusiastically. Right or wrong, it happened. But for the Israelis to continue to extend their settlements further and further outwards from the original areas is wrong, without any shadow of a doubt, at least imho. The Palestinians respond to the Israeli attempts to extend their share of the land. Of course they do. Wouldn’t you? Their lives are hell. This is great breeding ground for terrorists who resent America.

As you yourself have made the point, American intervention throughout the Middle East is never disinterested. Like the rest of the West, the US depends on oil, which is its life blood. The history of American intervention in the Middle East is a history of protecting their vested interest.

American intervention in Afghanistan against the Soviets has had dire consequences, for example. After funding and arming the Taliban, acting in concert with Pakistan, America just fucked off and left them to it, after the Soviet threat was vanquished. A little more thought and a little less haste to be out of there might have worked wonders. But no, vested interest protection accomplished, off we go, bye bye.

(As I’m sure you are aware, there have been conflicts in which America has NOT intervened, - due to the fact it has no vested interest. I’m fine with America NOT intervening, by the way – I don’t believe it is down to the US to go around sorting out the rest of the world. I believe all nations need to unite and pool resources in order to stop abuses of human rights where there is a clear need to do so – after proper consideration and debate. Some of the elements needed for such a united peace keeping body are already in place, however, the problems of welding them into a coherent and cohesive whole are almost overwhelming. But it must be done, if our race is to move forward in amity.)

The West’s overwheening arrogance, coupled with its assumption that its way is best also plays a big part in Arab resentment. Globalisation (driven largely by American and European vested interests) is homogenising cultures throughout the world, and the world loses much by its doing so. In the UK, American culture rules ok. McDonalds, Starbucks and a host of other franchises. The US way of doing business, with its lack of emphasis on worker rights and conditions (I am here comparing with other European countries such as Holland and the Scandinavian countries.) is here to stay, it looks like. The coca cola culture. I find it bland and boring, generally speaking, although as with anything else, there are also good things to have come out of globalisation. The increased ability to communicate that we have, for example, through media such as the internet.

Not everyone wants to have their culture eaten up by McDonalds type huge franchises which sell shit in substitution for decent food. The more you have these big franchises taking over, the bigger the risk that small local businesses will be pushed out, because they can’t compete. In some very poor countries that isn’t going to happen, because the price of a hamburger is more than their weekly wage. So they look in the window and long for rubbish, because it has been sold to them as representative of a way of life, which in fact is not all that it is cracked up to be. (See below on this.)

Cultures that are radically different from that of the US view the spreading of that Western thought and ideas with alarm. Now, don’t get me wrong – much of western thought, and the structures that have come out of that thought is admirable, in intent if not always in implementation! However, the ills of our society, - the many diseases of the rich, (over consumption related), the high levels of crime, the enormous rise in mental illness, the lack of respect for the old, the easy acceptance of violence as normal, especially in tv and movies (including violence in sex), one cannot wonder at them not wanting some of these elements.

But yes, freedom is a wonderful thing, and there is no denying that in many cases, we in the west have more freedom than in other parts of the world. However, there are different definitions of freedom – freedom to work 9-5 at a job you hate, freedom to be mugged in the street, freedom to eat crap that will poison your body, freedom to watch material on tv that will poison your soul, freedom to be pressured by adverts 24 x 7 that are telling you your body and way of life are just not good enough, freedom to define yourself by your possessions, rather than who you are, freedom to live lonely in a city full of people... etc etc.

I’m not west bashing here. I love living in the West, and we have many freedoms which I for one do not wish to give up! But we don’t have a perfect society by any manner of means, and the freedoms we have do have their down side. I just wanted to mention a few of the more negative aspects, just so that you might have an idea of what other cultures might NOT want of what we have to offer.

By the way, the way that people often get acquainted with the West in other countries is by means of advertisements, those glossy depictions of lifestyles (rather than real lives) which are so attractive. Well, they would be, wouldn’t they? They are designed to sell product. In many cases, people in poorer countries have been seduced by images of the West, only to get here and find that there are two sides to every story. It is quite possible to come here and starve to death, or die of cold.

The West is not paradise, and we are not angels, although some of the press are trying to portray it as such, just lately, providig a black and white contrast, in many cases, between the happy and fluffy democratised Us and the the ‘horrors and injustices’ that flourish under Islam. (Polarity TV. I hate it.) Yes, we’re mostly just people trying to get along. Unfortunately, too often we do it on the backs of others who are poorer and more vulnerable than we are, WHETHER WE ARE CONCIOUS OF THAT OR NOT. Another reason for the resentment against the West.

There’s much more I could say about world capitalism and globalisation, exploitation of developing countries by the countries of the West (including my own) but I’ve said it all before in other threads. The reason I feel it is relevant here is that you can’t consider things in a vacuum. All the factors that make up a situation need to be looked at.

Anyway, that’s my two cents worth. (More like a dollar, actually, sorry it’s so long. And I still haven’t said even part of what I wanted to... )


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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati




[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 10-10-2001).]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: For someone so obviously intelligent you display an astounding lack of understanding of the facts involved.

Nachtrafe - this was sooooooooo much funnier before you edited.



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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas
Don't mention the score - I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!