Mock-tater Al-Satyr

[Timber Loftis]

Bullshit, Magness. Thinking in terms of black and white ignores the dialectic nature of everything. Thinking in terms of black and white inevitably leads you to call one thing "white" and the other "black" when they in fact are the same color/quality (whatever that may be). It leads you to simply label things based on your personal preferences.

Name any issue, tell me where the black and the white are, and I'll be happy to oppose it.

[Magness]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Bullshit, Magness. Thinking in terms of black and white ignores the dialectic nature of everything. Thinking in terms of black and white inevitably leads you to call one thing "white" and the other "black" when they in fact are the same color/quality (whatever that may be). It leads you to simply label things based on your personal preferences. Name any issue, tell me where the black and the white are, and I'll be happy to oppose it.

Fah. You are a verbal merc. You get paid to seek out the gray and confuse matters. That is the nature of your profession.

[Night Stalker]

Then I'll grab the gauntlet. By your leave of course Counsil. Engineer/Soldier, reporting. What is immoral? How do things get qualified as "white" or "black"? Who is the approving authority? How was that authority granted?

Pick any topic. "White" and "Black" are relative. Why do you choose black and white? Bad and Good? Are they in that order? Did you know that while in Western Cultures white is a symbol of Purity, Chastiy, Morality .... in Eastern cultures it is a symbol of Death, Disease and Evil?

The world is not black and white. Like it or not, the world is polychromatic.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Then I'll grab the gauntlet. By your leave of course Counsil. Engineer/Soldier, reporting. What is immoral? How do things get qualified as "white" or "black"? Who is the approving authority? How was that authority granted? Pick any topic. "White" and "Black" are relative. Why do you choose black and white? Bad and Good? Are they in that order? Did you know that while in Western Cultures white is a symbol of Purity, Chastiy, Morality .... in Eastern cultures it is a symbol of Death, Disease and Evil? The world is not black and white. Like it or not, the world is polychromatic.

1,2,3,&4: Sorry NS there is a moritorium on the answers and I'll not go down that BLACK road.

5,6,7:It doesn't matter what color, word or order call it ying & yang as if the sounds or combination of shapes we as humans have chosen to recoginize as comunication makes a hill of beans to the concept.

8: So what!!!! see answers to 5,6,&7

[Timber Loftis]

Ying and yang each contain an aspect of each other -- the oriental philosophies are certainly wise enough to see the point we're making. It's not the nature of my job. It is the nature of things.

This is especially true of political things. If you can look at either party and identify one as black and one as white, even on one issue no less, then you have simply convinced yourself to ignore reality.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Ying and yang each contain an aspect of each other -- the oriental philosophies are certainly wise enough to see the point we're making. It's not the nature of my job. It is the nature of things. This is especially true of political things. If you can look at either party and identify one as black and one as white, even on one issue no less, then you have simply convinced yourself to ignore reality.

So what if ying and yang cantain aspects of each other, they are sounds and combinations of made up shapes, made up by humans. As I said call it what you want it matters not to me, what it is called has ZERO bearing on weither absloutes exsist or not. Oh yeah to say there are no absolutes is an absolute, it absolutly denies the exsistance of an absolute, therfore it is an absolute. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Nobody is saying that situations do no effect whiether something is black or white, situations do effect that. BECAUSE with a differant situation it BECOMES something differant.

[John D Harris]

You "Greyers" have you ever seen a halftone pattern? Notice how from a distance it looks grey, but when you look closely at it, it is lots of little BLACK dots on a white sheet of paper. Same for a Photograph, look closely you'll see there are real small BLACK grains, NO grey, just black and white. Same for you "multicolors" lots of small bits of 4colors giving the Illusion of many more colors. But the reality is there are absolutes, black & white giving the illusion of grey. Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black giving the illusion of multicolors add the white of the paper now you have even more colors and tones illuded too. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Night Stalker]

Sorry, J.D. you are just being willfully ignorant. Without delving into the BANNED TOPIC, let's just look at one topic: killing a human life.

Our Society says that killing is wrong. Murder is evil. The approving authority is the US Judicial Code and that authority is granted by We the People. However, that same legal code dictates the some people will take a human life, and it is not considdered evil under the law. They are shades of the same topic. An assassin takes a life .... an evil bastard. But a Soldier takes a life ... hero. Again, pick any topic and there is a counter opinion, not an absolute set of ways of looking at/handling things. Refusing to accept otherwise is choosing to remain willfully ignorant.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by John D Harris: So what if ying and yang cantain aspects of each other, they are sounds and combinations of made up shapes, made up by humans.

Well, not really. They are a pretty picture made to demonstrate a fundamental point in the nature of things, and they represent one of the basic fundamental differences between Eastern and Western thought. One that can really only be bridged in Western thought, as far as I have seen, by an understanding of the dialectic.

Oh yeah to say there are no absolutes is an absolute, it absolutly denies the exsistance of an absolute, therfore it is an absolute. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Logically, you are quite right, and I don't think I'm saying there are no absolutes. I am saying that I highly doubt that there are any qualitative absolutes. That doesn't mean I won't make judgments as to whether I consider things good or bad during my everyday life -- it just means that I recognize my judgment is dictated by my perspective and prejudice. Master morality, or slave morality? Or a little of both? Which is right, which is white?

Nobody is saying that situations do no effect whiether something is black or white, situations do effect that. BECAUSE with a differant situation it BECOMES something differant.

A fine phenomenological point. Of course it's just a bit off the mark. The thing becomes something different, but that different thing is not a reversal, but rather a synthesis, a maturation of what has become before. The situation forces the thing to learn and grow and change perspective, but it does not just flip from "black" to "white" and forget all that has come before. It matures. And, that my friend is dialectic phenomenology. Nothing can be known for what it is except during the act of becoming. Ontology, seeing a thing for what it "is," is a fine ideal, but nearly impossible to achieve in truth, for the nature of something is only revealed duriung the becoming.

[ 08-26-2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Sorry, J.D. you are just being willfully ignorant. Without delving into the BANNED TOPIC, let's just look at one topic: killing a human life. Our Society says that killing is wrong. Murder is evil. The approving authority is the US Judicial Code and that authority is granted by We the People. However, that same legal code dictates the some people will take a human life, and it is not considdered evil under the law. They are shades of the same topic. An assassin takes a life .... an evil bastard. But a Soldier takes a life ... hero. Again, pick any topic and there is a counter opinion, not an absolute set of ways of looking at/handling things. Refusing to accept otherwise is choosing to remain willfully ignorant.

Nice try but inorder for your examples to even have a hope of working You MUST equate Murder=Capital Punishment for crimes, Assassin=Soldier fighting. You are comparing apples to oranges, what part of "BECAUSE with a differant situation it BECOMES something differant." means these are the same? You have discribed differant situations and are trying to make them the same. Murder is a subset of killing, capital punishment is a subset of Killing, assassination is a subset of killing, war is a subset of killing. All four are seperate and distinct from each other. I flat out reject the premise to begin with.

Now I can prove that you don't even believe your own words, by your actions. You have presented an opposing view: a black to my white, a white to my black, a good to my evil, a evil to my good, a right to my wrong, a wrong to my right. All in an effort to prove your absolution of there is no absolute, which in itself is an absolute. The correct and proper "Greyer" answer(where the term "Greyer" means somebody that see shades of grey not in terms of black and white.) would be "Maybe" or "Prehaps" not an answer of absolution.