Judge bans suicide show

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I believe "I" chose, not only my physical manifestation, but "I" also chose my parents as much as they chose me, at a soul level of existence. Of course the little physical shell of a baby doesn't survive without care, shelter, and protection. That is part of the "deal". I don't owe my parents anything for it, certainly not my continuing physical manifestastion.

Ditto. Not only is it my belief but also a truth for me. So good to read what you wrote from someone else other than myself.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Skunk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: To those that believe they solely own their own lives, I would ask how they brought themselves into this world and what they did to earn their life.

Your 'argument' effectively states that you own nothing; for example you can not possibley 'own' a computer - because you did not create the minerals from which it is composed.[/QUOTE]That's right. Possessions are temporary things that flow in and out of your possession. Aboriginal Australians for example found the concept of property ownership, or ownership of animals inconceivable and ludicrous. There were problems when they would tresspass on a settlers land and eat their sheep.

How can you own the land?

As a result, everyone has the right to tell you what to do with it. Indeed, on that same basis, I am telling you to stop writing posts on your computer - it is my right, as co-owner of your computer.

Flawed logic. Not truly owning something, does not automatically mean others do.

quote: Originally posted by Yorick: I have required assistance to use a lavatory. I have lain on a table, naked, lying in a pool of my own shit and blood in a hospital. I have fallen asleep and woken up in my own vomit in a hospital. I have needed assistance to walk down a hall, shower, shit, eat. All in hosptial.

But you were not terminally ill - unless you claim to be a ghost?[/QUOTE]This is unbelievable.... are you attempting to measure pain, discomfort, humiliation and fear from one human to another? It's only measurable within one human - as to, the worst thing you've experienced, or the best. My best experience is no better or worse than your best. It is just the best thing I've lived.

What I was pointing out, was that you described horrible losses of dignity. I pointed out that I had experienced humiliating losses of dignity myself. The very ones you described. Yes I was dying at the time - my blood pouring out of me - but what does that matter? Yes I got better. Thank God. I was left with the knowledge I gained from the experience. The reprioritisation, and changes in the relationships around me. Is it any less humiliating to lie in your own diahorrea mix of watery shit and a flood of your own blood as a young man than it is as an old man? Loss of dignity is loss of dignity. I had a tube shoved violently up my penis. Why attempt to belittle my own extreme situations? What does that prove? It took courage on my part to post my pains. Why not simply post your own life experiences instead of attempting to devalidate mine.

You told me to go and speak to relatives. I am a relative!! You described loss of dignity. I have experienced loss of dignity. I prefer life. That is the point. I prefered life even though at the time it seemed easier to simply give up. Life rocks.

quote: Originally posted by Yorik: Life is such a gift, and each succeeding moment an undeserved miracle I treasure. To throw away that gift... would be the highest insult to those that have loved me, to those that brought me into the world, to my God who gave me the spark of life.

If life is indeed a 'gift' - then it belongs to those to whom it was given. That is the differerence between a gift and a loan is it not? Or was your life 'loaned' to you?[/QUOTE]A gifted loan which will be taken back when I die. This earthly life is not a permanent gift, but temporary.
I have therefore made a decision about what I do with that life, resultant in a sharing of that life.

You claim that your God gave life to you - that's fine - it's your right to believe that and act accordingly. My life however, was not given to me: it was simply the result of a biological process. My body is a collection of minerals and my mind a series of electric impulses - and no, I have no 'soul'. And when I die, my body will return to the earth and atmosphere and feed the next generation of life; the energy and minerals will be scattered into multiple new organims in the never-ending process. That for me is the most beautiful aspect of death. And it is my right to believe in and put science before any notions of deities.

Whether you have a soul or not is irrelevent. Regardless of whether you do or not, I have a soul, but that is beside the point. Due to the actions and decisions of OTHER PEOPLE, you have survived to this day. Your life and survival are a direct result of other people.

quote: Originally posted by Yorick: I do not present strong opinions without reason. What I have learned, the values I now hold are hard won. I am a Christian BECAUSE of difficult experiences, not because I am naive and sheltered. I have extensively tested my faith, which is why I am SO ASSURED that what I believe is true.

Nonethelss it remains your opinion and no-one has the right to force their opinion on others to the point that they end up exercising control over the lives of others: that would be slavery, pure and simple.

I am equally assured of the 'factuality' of my convictions on the basis my own life experiences. I have also extensively tested my beliefs in an arduous world and come to my conclusions on the basis of hard logic and scientific study. So should I now deny all religions the right to worship and live their lives in service to their gods and goddesses because I believe in the totality of the righteousness of my convictions?

I do not believe so - I do not believe that I have the right to physically force my beliefs on others. I will forcefully argue and debate my cause - but I will never attempt to seize the lives of others against their will - and I don't believe anyone else should either.

There is *no* love involved in forcing your will upon others. [/qb][/QUOTE]Is prison slavery? Are metal institutions slavery? Are you decrying the existence of these because your post seems to indicate so.

Secondly who is forcing their opinions on anyone here? We're discussing on the internet. However, were you to attempt suicide and I was able to stop you, I would exert the same right you are advocating as master of my own destiny and try to stop you. Who is right? Your actions will effect mine and mine yours? Is there some mystic scale of importance of effect? The same argument you present allows me to do this.

I have as I said, intervened in anothers suicide, and they are alive to this day, so given that PRECEDENT and the positive outcome, would do so again. You can hypothesise all you want, but the tangible results of a factual occurence speak for themselves.

In any case, the point stands that you were assuming a lack of experience/knowledge from me in two topics simply because I presented an opinion that differed from yours. That was my point. I have not made any suggestions you are an idiot, nor naive, and only reached the conclusion that you are completely unaware of Islamic theology due to your inability to form your own theological argument defending your position - relying totally on second opinions rather than the source material, and straw man deflections by presenting other religious works.

So, why not present your own experience of loss of dignity, loss of relatives to cancer or other terminal illnesses. I had the guts to do it in spite of an irrascible atmosphere. I am sure since you have such strong opinions that your personal experience must be expansive. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

But don't just ask me to "accept your word" as you did in the Islamic thread.

[ 10-22-2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Yorick, I think having gone through so much yourself, you may be like the smoker who quits and becomes the most anti-smoking hostile advocate imaginable.

Good point.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Venturing deeper into the realm of personal belief and touching upon metaphysics.... I see the point you are making, Yorick but it doesn't matter from my perspective. I believe "I" chose, not only my physical manifestation, but "I" also chose my parents as much as they chose me, at a soul level of existence.

Perspecitive is reality, therefore reality is memory. If you don't remember something it may as well not have happened to you. (I think I believe this, but for the purposes of discussion, I'll pragmatically take this as certain belief)

It is impossible to prove you made the choice, nor discover why because you don't remember is. As such it is speculation.

My point is (and I do believe this for sure ) Is that my view is based on tangible facts of this life. I would be dead were it not for other people, some random, some close to me, so I live my life giving back to other people - some random, some close to me.

I am not a slave to them. These are my choices. I've also found the Karmic/JudeoLaw principle of sowing where you reap applies. If you invest in people, that's where you get a reuturn. I have at times experienced a wierd cumulative scale, where I've received so much from a community that I've given beyond expected capacity, and yet still walked away feeling like I received more than I gave.


(Editted because the initial version was written in extreme haste)

[ 10-22-2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Maelakin: quote: Originally posted by Yorick I cannot do anything but hold strong opinions after the reality I have been shown. I value my life. I always was intent to learn from others experiences, and value what they did without having to lose those things as they did. Even so, a car accident that left me in a neck brace for months, and the numerous times in hospital, as per the above post, reinforced, and revitalised my priorities and opinions. Things like 9/11 and everything in my life I experience as I go perpetuate all this. I love my God, I love the life he has given me. I am so so thankful to be aware, right now. To be alive right NOW. If I die as soon as this is posted I will be happy to have lived those few extra moments. It's a beautiful thing life.

Your beliefs are not mine. By basing your argument on your beliefs, you are in effect attempting to force your will upon me. In most situations, another attempting to force their will over another is a hostile action.

Why don't you put aside your beliefs for one minute and try to understand that not everyone believes as you do. As such, when determining the basis of a LAW, there should be no connection to personal beliefs, rather each one should be evaluated as to not infringe on the personal rights of any person. Making suicide illegal infringes on my personal rights as a human being.

Take away religion and any other form of belief-based arguments, and turn only to empirical facts that exist in the world. When looked at in this respect, there is no reason not to allow another person to take his or her own life. You have your right to believe what you will concerning the act, but another should not have to be subjected to your belief and will concerning a decision they can make for themselves. [/QUOTE]LOL! If I thought everyone believed the same as me, I wouldn't be discussing!

O.k. so could you explain to me the state of existence in which any individual is seperated from their beliefs? Absolute objectivity?

I'm only a human, and like you cannot seperate myself from my subjectivity. YOUR beliefs are all over your exaltation of empirical facts for example. Over your self defeating belief that one should seperate themselves from their beliefs when determining law.

Why don't you take a leaf out of your own book and realise not everyone believes the same as YOU. Not everyone believes in LAW. Every heard of ANARCHISM. Or crime or vigilanteism for that matter? A persons beliefs directly influence their approach to matters of law, even the concept of law itself. It cannot be any other way. We are subjective beings.

As to "forcing will" you have totally ignored the concept of LAW your are exalting. Law is exactly some humans excercising their beliefs of right and wrong over others.

By what right do we take away a persons freedom simply because they perform an action we other humans deem "unacceptable"? Police enforce the will of some over the will of others. People exerting will over others occurs every day. Influence, persuasion, force, coercion. Look around you.

What reality are you living in that this simple fact has eluded you? You are not holding any moral highground here. You are doing exactly the same thing you are deriding me for doing.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Yorick: I have not made any suggestions you are an idiot, nor naive, and only reached the conclusion that you are completely unaware of Islamic theology due to your inability to form your own theological argument defending your position - relying totally on second opinions rather than the source material, and straw man deflections by presenting other religious works.

That is an unsubstantiated and calumnious allegation.

[Timber Loftis]

Yorick, you've stated the notion before that I can't use learned secondary sources to make points about a main source. It's called academia, dude. What else is a research paper, a treatise, a dissertation, or any other academic work? If you insist on discussing the bible, for instance, and insist we throw out all secondary works about the bible and only look to the bible for the bible, you've adopted deconstructionist theory and well, you've just made the discussion completely uninteresting for me.

Especially in the case where you know more about the text of the Bible than me. It makes you the de facto sole expert on the topic. With no other experts to refute you (who I would still argue are more knowledgable than you), I cannot help but lose on every point. Congratulations, but I think that's a hollow victory.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Yorick, you've stated the notion before that I can't use learned secondary sources to make points about a main source. It's called academia, dude. What else is a research paper, a treatise, a dissertation, or any other academic work? If you insist on discussing the bible, for instance, and insist we throw out all secondary works about the bible and only look to the bible for the bible, you've adopted deconstructionist theory and well, you've just made the discussion completely uninteresting for me. Especially in the case where you know more about the text of the Bible than me. It makes you the de facto sole expert on the topic. With no other experts to refute you (who I would still argue are more knowledgable than you), I cannot help but lose on every point. Congratulations, but I think that's a hollow victory.

Of course not. I did quite clearly state a good historian will look at primary and secondary sources. Reading anothers analysis can be very beneficial. Only today I read a Jewish Rabbis thoughts on the nature of God as being beyond time for example, as well as the nature of time itself - measurable time (ala relativity) and absolute time. It was a wonderful thing to read such articulation and gave me much food for thought. It also provided for a wonderful exchange with the old Jewish guy who gave me the book.

My issue was that I posted relevent passages from the Qu'ran and Hadiths, and Skunk refused to analyse or offer alternate interpretations of the passages by analysising the passages concerned - something I've done when people post the bible in support of spurious allegation.

All he did was post the much maligned "Straw man" argument and defended his interpretation, by presenting a BIBLICAL passage. If I was an atheist or Wahabist Muslim, what would the bible have to do with anything? We were talking about the Qu'ran!!!

I've had discussions with Muslims about this. Toned down of course due to the potential volitility factor.

However the point remains, when we are having a discussion, it is pointless to simply post anothers words as your own argument in total. I can't very well argue with them if they're not here - though I would given the opportunity.

Religious understanding DOES need to reference the source material. It is the point of reference. It is quite frustrating arguing with people holding false views about Jesus or Christianity who haven't even read the bible. It's not that hard to read it!

If a person does engage in an argument without reading the respective source work one wonders what the agenda is.

Have you ever seen Cerek take up an arguement that derides Islam? No, he's read the bible, but not the Qu'ran. His expertise is in what the bible says, so those arguments are what he contributes to. Defending against incorrect assumptions about our faith. Very wise is Mr. Cerek.

Had I not read the Qu'ran/Hadiths I would not have made the comments I did. Pure and simple.

Deconstructionism or not, if you're going to hold opinions on the bible or qu'ran make sure you've read enough to hold those opinions. I would actually argue for holding off on making an opinion at all until you've read it. Every Christian is encouraged to read the bible FOR THEMSELVES and not solely rely on the words of their preacher for example.

It's not hard. Spoonfeeding is for babies. Feed yourself.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Skunk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: I have not made any suggestions you are an idiot, nor naive, and only reached the conclusion that you are completely unaware of Islamic theology due to your inability to form your own theological argument defending your position - relying totally on second opinions rather than the source material, and straw man deflections by presenting other religious works.

That is an unsubstantiated and calumnious allegation. [/QUOTE]What is?

I reached a conclusion about your understanding given the nature of your arguing. I could quite obviously be wrong, by I described what my criterea for assessing and reaching a conclusion was. What the "substance" was if you like.

Even now, you are yet to post an alternate interpretation of the passages.

Educate me! Do you think I am glad such an interpretation exists? I sincerely wish it were not so, but how am I to simply accept you word without you elaborating? The first militant muslim I encounter holding the interpretations I posted would walk all over my argument in a second. I have read the dissertations of those who advocate a solely spiritual interpretation, and I don't buy it when I then read the qu'ran. Obviously, neither do the Osama Bin Ladens or Yasser Arafats of the world. Nor the mothers of Hamas suicide bombers.

[Yorick]

O.k. How is this for SIMPLICITY.

If you are going to have an educated discussion on how good a film/wine/tourist resort is, do you rely on the critics review or do you need to see the film, drink the wine, and visit the resort.

Ignoring the source is like a person deriding Matrix 2 saying "oh yeah, I heard it was crap". Well so did I. I heard it was crap too, but I went and saw it and decided for myself it was brilliant.