Roleplaying/Alignment Dilemmas

[Q'alooaith]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: A few notes: - I find it interesting that the person who actually casts the Flamestrike is Viconia herself. (At least, that's how it was in my game pre-BaldurDash, I haven't checked it recently.) Guess we can add this to the list of bizarre suicides.

She's not meant to be casting flamestrike on herself, it's meant to represent a fanatic throwing a torch onto the kindling at her feet and she going up in flames.


I'm not sure, but I think that even if you cast protechtion from fire/cold and then protechtion from fire on her she'll still burn, even though her fire resist would be over 100%

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Cerek: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: quote: Originally posted by Cerek: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Unfortunately, I'm away from my books... But research Beshaba. This is the strongest hint that the execution isn't legit. Anyone living in Faerun would be familiar with Beshaba... and would know right away that Amn does not endorse her in *any* way, shape, or form.

Aaahhhh....but "researching Besheba" actually contradicts one of Riftmakers main arguments - that it doesn't matter what actually happened between your PC and Viconia in BG1 (I didn't let her join the party myself)...what matters is what the GAME ITSELF tells you happened. Other than using the title "Maid of Misrule", there isn't enough information given to the PC to know that Besheba is an evil diety. [/QUOTE]Gorion was a smart man. The PC grew up in Candlekeep. Faerun is a diverse world with more gods than I can count. I'm sure that Gorion saw to it that the PC recieved a well-rounded education. This would have included a bit of theology.

Living in Faerun for 18-some-odd years and not knowing about its gods is like not knowing about its major geographical features, surrounding countries, oceans, constellations, things like that. And Beshaba is a deity widely feared... I wouldn't make this argument for all deities (I don't expect the PC, or many people here, to know who Sharess is, for example) but it's a fair bet that the PC is familiar with Tymora and Beshaba, Lathander, Helm, Tyr, Torm, Oghma, Selune, Shar, Sune, Chauntea, Talos... The list goes on. Converse with the priests in the Temple District: "I've heard that Helm is a stern and uncaring deity." Nobody tells the PC this, it's just something they've picked up.

One last thing... Beshaba is mentioned in the book "History of the Fateful Coin." You deliver that book to... What's his name... Firebead Elvenhair... In Beregost. Surely the PC flipped through it before delivering it.

Just because the information isn't given to the PC doesn't mean the PC doesn't know it. The thief PC is never "told" how to pick a lock, the paladin is never "told" about their own god, the ranger is never "told" about monsters... So how did they select a racial enemy? Stuff happens before that fateful day in Candlekeep. [/QUOTE]Sorry, Illumina, but you're switching your argument from the knowledge of the player to the knowledge of the PC. In your first post, you said you are away from your books, but researching Besheba would let the player know that she is evil.

Then you switch the argument to say that the PC would automatically have all this knowledge from Gorion's tutoring and the books at Candlekeep.

That may be true, but the fact is that the characters actions DO DEPEND on the player's knowledge. I don't have any Forgotten Realms books and am only vaguely familiar with the most major gods. I have NO IDEA who Besheba is and I have NO WAY of finding out from the info given in the game.

The ONLY indications given to the PLAYER that the execution isn't on the up-and-up is that the cleric uses Besheba's title as the "Maid of Misrule" (which should be a BIG clue to the Lawful PC) and the "followers" of Besheba are referred to as "fanatics".

No matter HOW you argue the various points, in the end, it is the PLAYER that determines how the PC acts (or reacts), so any "knowledge" used MUST be available to the PLAYER instead of assumed to be imparted to the PC. Yeah, Besheba is apparantly mentioned in one of the numerous books you find while searching various locations, but honostly, who actually READS those books in the first place?

So to say that the player should "know" about Besheba because Gorion was a smart tutor and there were volumes of books at Candlekeep is a moot argument. NONE of that actually tells the PLAYER anything useful about Besheba. [/QUOTE]Oh, no no no... I wanted you, personally, to research Beshaba. This doesn't imply some knowledge is imparted upon the player.

I can see we're not really going to agree here... I keep my stance. Nobody told my player anything useful about using a longsword or how to put on armor. But I do see where you're coming from... I do tend to keep the PnP mindset, I suppose.

It's a question of what kind of knowledge is implied, and people draw the line in different places.

[Riftmaker]

The crux of the matter is, only the PC and the NPCs that travelled with him in BG1 know about Viconia's true nature.

This is where the game kinda falls short in my opinion. There should be an option to call for a new trial, with you as a witness. You should have a chance to convince the authorities that Viconia disdains violence except in revenge, or self defence. Neither of those situations seem to apply here.

The point is, nobody has all the information.

Now, the game won't let you do this...which is a little ridiculous, but oh well.

So we're left with freeing her, or leaving her to die.

Given all of the information that the PC has, and the information that is available at the scene, I would contend that anyone except LN or TN would free her. Simply because they know that Viconia couldn't possibly have comitted those crimes, and if she did, she had a damn good reason.

I'm with Illumina, if you want to RP a character properly, you have to know what knowledge he / she would or would not have. Heck, we should make a thread dedicated to questions like "Should my PC know this, or this, etc". If the answer is yes, then you, the person, go and research the necesarry information.

[Q'alooaith]

Hold up..

Question the fanatics, pick the right options and you'll run into the following statments, this is not a word for word quote.


"I found her in the market and grabbed her"

"We got together this mob to burn her"

"We don't know if she's commited any crimes, but we don't care"


So rather than just clicking, or not clicking the pyre and using the talk command you can find out for yourself that no lawmen are involved, it realy is a mob..

So saying the PC does not know is just silly, the PC does not know a lot of things when they arrive on any given location, the copper cronett is a good example, you the player might know heaps about it, but the PC just see's another inn.


The PC can find out so many things, if you only ask the questions.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Q'alooaith: Hold up.. Question the fanatics, pick the right options and you'll run into the following statments, this is not a word for word quote. "I found her in the market and grabbed her" "We got together this mob to burn her" "We don't know if she's commited any crimes, but we don't care" So rather than just clicking, or not clicking the pyre and using the talk command you can find out for yourself that no lawmen are involved, it realy is a mob.. So saying the PC does not know is just silly, the PC does not know a lot of things when they arrive on any given location, the copper cronett is a good example, you the player might know heaps about it, but the PC just see's another inn. The PC can find out so many things, if you only ask the questions.

Wow...thanks for the info, Q. You're right, I never thought about actually questioning the other fanatics or the crowd. That does add another dimension to the dilemma and does provide enough data for the PC to make a more informed decision.

[Cerek]

OK....time for a new RP dilemma that I encountered last night.

Pai'Na and her hive of spiders

A half-drow druid that has set herself up as a hivemother and guardian to the spiders you encounter underneath the Graveyard District. If you talk to her, she tell you she will give you free passage and protection from her spiders. In return, she asks that you find a weapon designed specifically to kill spiders and return it to her so that she may destroy it. The weapon is one of the better swords from BG1 - SpiderBane.

Here are the relevant factors (at least for my character).

1) Pai'Na is a druid (or at least claims to be). That means she is True Neutral in alignment.
2) Despite being a half-drow under the Graveyard District, she makes it very clear that she and Bodhi are NOT friends in any way.
3) She points out that killing all the spiders will allow the population of other vermin to increase (since the spiders won't be around to eat them).
4) On the downside, she has several citizens trapped in the web in her hive to serve as food for her young spiders. According to her, it is "proper justice" for their crimes against spiders.

I am playing a NG Skald. The first time I entered the hive, I went ahead and attacked Pai'Na and her spiders (since I had just been attacked by several other spiders before entering. But then I reconsidered the info she gave me and decided to see about retrieving this weapon she wants - which brings up another problem.

According to Pai'Na, the SpiderBane sword is being used by workers in the Sewers under the Temple District, but I've searched through there several times and found NOBODY!!! (well, I found Keldorn and allowed him to join my party, until we discovered the problems he had at home - then I released him from my service).

So - does anybody know WHERE or WHEN these workers show up with the sword?

[ElfBane]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: quote: Originally posted by ElfBane: quote: Originally posted by Malthaussen: Are you snide by profession? I state right after the first part of what you quote "Operating within the rules, however..." Thus negating any self-contradiction. In other words, I don't like the rule, but if one must use it, what follows is to be considered. Secondly, I state "Of course, individual gradients of LG behavior may modify this; your milage may vary." ie, one LG paladin or character may see things this way, others may not. As you style yourself a "pedantic mistress of language" I should think you would not miss such nuances in a text. That having been said, I agree with you. I mention the reactions of other characters only as one form of indicating how a character may react. In the D&D style of alignment rules, LG characters are more than a little inflexible: if one interprets law or good in idiosyncratic ways, they are considered not "really" LG. An LG character must uphold law at the expense of good, if a choice must be made, or else how would he differ from an NG or CG character? -- Mal

Congratulations.. you have just met Illumina. Do not cross her or in ANY WAY dis her,, or you will be banned. The moderators that rule this board genuflect to Illumina,,, and if she wishes you banned,,,,,,, it WILL happen. [/QUOTE]I've had just about enough of this. If you have a problem with me, confront *me* and leave the board at large out of it. I don't know how I've crossed you in the past, but let me set the record straight. I have personally never requested the banning or suspension of another member. Never have, and never will. AND, if you're suspended for flamebating me.... repeatedly at this point... it will also not be because I reported you or called for it. Thank you and enjoy your day.

And if a word you spoke was true, you would have been banned already.

Malthaussen: Someone else accused me of being the overly pedantic mistress of language. I apologize if I was overly rude to you. I have no acceptable excuse for such behavior except for the fact that it hasn't been a very good holiday. [/QUOTE]I apologize, Illumina. I should not have flamed you.

[TheGodThatFailed]

Originally posted by Cerek: OK....time for a new RP dilemma that I encountered last night. Pai'Na and her hive of spiders A half-drow druid that has set herself up as a hivemother and guardian to the spiders you encounter underneath the Graveyard District. If you talk to her, she tell you she will give you free passage and protection from her spiders. In return, she asks that you find a weapon designed specifically to kill spiders and return it to her so that she may destroy it. The weapon is one of the better swords from BG1 - SpiderBane. Here are the relevant factors (at least for my character). 1) Pai'Na is a druid (or at least claims to be). That means she is True Neutral in alignment. 2) Despite being a half-drow under the Graveyard District, she makes it very clear that she and Bodhi are NOT friends in any way. 3) She points out that killing all the spiders will allow the population of other vermin to increase (since the spiders won't be around to eat them). 4) On the downside, she has several citizens trapped in the web in her hive to serve as food for her young spiders. According to her, it is "proper justice" for their crimes against spiders. I am playing a NG Skald. The first time I entered the hive, I went ahead and attacked Pai'Na and her spiders (since I had just been attacked by several other spiders before entering. But then I reconsidered the info she gave me and decided to see about retrieving this weapon she wants - which brings up another problem. According to Pai'Na, the SpiderBane sword is being used by workers in the Sewers under the Temple District, but I've searched through there several times and found NOBODY!!! (well, I found Keldorn and allowed him to join my party, until we discovered the problems he had at home - then I released him from my service). So - does anybody know WHERE or WHEN these workers show up with the sword?

spoilers
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The workers are in one of the circular shaped sections to the west in the temple sewers. Go to where you pick up Keldorn, head south a a bit and they are on the west side of the circular section. And what i would do, would be to let the spiders live. Without the spiders, as you said, there would be alot more vermin. SO wha tif they have humans there, killing the spiders would allow other vermin to kill more humans, and bug them. You don't know, the humans might even be evil vilans. I would let the spiders live.

[Link]

Cerek, Spider's Bane (which is the actual name of the sword, not SpiderBane) is part of the Unfinished Business mod. While we are discussing moral/roleplaying issues here the mod is not something intended by the original creators of the game. Maybe we should just stick to a pure unmodded game to get a clear view of what kind of roleplaying problems we can encounter. On the other hand, it is, after all, your party [img]smile.gif[/img]

Frankly I think that the original Pai'Na herself imposes a good enough roleplaying opportunity. A half-drow druid who has set up a hive with spiders. You enter the layer and she attacks. Who are you to kill her?

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by ElfBane: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: quote: Originally posted by ElfBane: quote: Originally posted by Malthaussen: Are you snide by profession? I state right after the first part of what you quote "Operating within the rules, however..." Thus negating any self-contradiction. In other words, I don't like the rule, but if one must use it, what follows is to be considered. Secondly, I state "Of course, individual gradients of LG behavior may modify this; your milage may vary." ie, one LG paladin or character may see things this way, others may not. As you style yourself a "pedantic mistress of language" I should think you would not miss such nuances in a text. That having been said, I agree with you. I mention the reactions of other characters only as one form of indicating how a character may react. In the D&D style of alignment rules, LG characters are more than a little inflexible: if one interprets law or good in idiosyncratic ways, they are considered not "really" LG. An LG character must uphold law at the expense of good, if a choice must be made, or else how would he differ from an NG or CG character? -- Mal

Congratulations.. you have just met Illumina. Do not cross her or in ANY WAY dis her,, or you will be banned. The moderators that rule this board genuflect to Illumina,,, and if she wishes you banned,,,,,,, it WILL happen. [/QUOTE]I've had just about enough of this. If you have a problem with me, confront *me* and leave the board at large out of it. I don't know how I've crossed you in the past, but let me set the record straight. I have personally never requested the banning or suspension of another member. Never have, and never will. AND, if you're suspended for flamebating me.... repeatedly at this point... it will also not be because I reported you or called for it. Thank you and enjoy your day.

And if a word you spoke was true, you would have been banned already.

Malthaussen: Someone else accused me of being the overly pedantic mistress of language. I apologize if I was overly rude to you. I have no acceptable excuse for such behavior except for the fact that it hasn't been a very good holiday. [/QUOTE]I apologize, Illumina. I should not have flamed you. [/QUOTE]Apology accepted.